Effect of blocks of text on cards.
Asked by BlueScope 7 years ago
In the back of my head, I remember reading something about blocks of text on a card mattering in certain situations. That's from a time where I was nowhere near as familiar with the rules back then and disregarded it, but now that the details are becoming more interesting to me, this is something I would like to know more about.
What I'm asking about is cards like Macabre Waltz - a card that could've just as well be phrased:
Return up to two target creature cards from your graveyard to your hand.Discard a Card.
This is the way cards like Electrolyze are phrased, and I'm simply wondering whether the difference is purely formatting matter or if there's an actual, ever-so-insignificant rule difference between those phrasings. I can't really imagine there would be, as effects are resolved top to bottom and not a lot can happen during the resolution of a spell, but then I remember reading something about something being different if the text stated things in multiple blocks of text, rather than in a single one.
I'm not specifically asking about Macabre Waltz, by the way, but about the card mechanics in general (but for obvious reasons, I can't link a card where it does matter).
Thanks in advance!
@Gidgetimer: I'd disagree with you here on a very picky level and say the difference between Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light is that the former has two triggered abilities, while the latter sets a duration - the text block arrangement reflects those rule differences, but they're not the reason why the cards work differently.
In general, I think the only time it could ever be relevant is for Instants and Sorceries, because they're the only card types (I can think of) that would have multiple text blocks that are all necessarily executed in order (whereas Oblivion Ring has an ETB ability and one that will trigger at a later time).
As for Macabre Waltz, rules-wise, I can see no mechanic reason why discarding a card would be related to returning cards to your hand, as you can discard any card, not just one of the ones you returned. It's effectively a different effect. I can see that being a choice of the card designers to make it easier for the reader (while "deal 2 damage and draw a card" would indeed be weird), but the Waltz only serves as an example of a card with multiple effects in a single block to get the point accross.
May 21, 2016 10:13 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
Hmm, maybe I did not make myself clear. You seem to be disagreeing with me then restating the point I was trying to get across.
With Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light the paragraph break is a function of the distinction, not the cause of it. I was trying to illustrate the times that the distinction made has rules implications.
I know that you were using Macabre Waltz as an example. I was trying to explain why I see that they combined the two effects for flavor since as you say it doesn't matter for function. The exertion of returning the two creatures from graveyard to hand made you lose a part of your concentration (as represented by your hand). Thoughtseize could technically be three abilities. Revealing their and and choosing a card to discard were linked for formatting and flow. "You lose two life" was combined because it shows a flavor connection that you are using a bit of your life force to wrench a thought from their mind.
I will try to find a card that matters for instants and sorceries. I doubt I will be successful since I believe them to be formatted mostly for flow and flavor since as you say there is no opportunity to do anything while it is resolving. The different paragraph distinction is mostly on permanents for abilities.
May 21, 2016 10:41 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
For spell abilities (the effects that instants and sorceries have when they resolve), the exact formatting in terms of paragraph separation doesn't really matter. There's no functional difference between Macabre Waltz's actual text and the substitute text you proposed in your question. Instants and sorceries are written in a way that's meant to be easy to interpret. I don't think you're going to find a completely satisfactory answer as to why some things are broken up whereas others are not.
For permanents, and for spells that have activated or triggered abilities, each new paragraph is used to indicate a new ability.
To use the above example, Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light are functionally different cards.
Because Oblivion Ring uses two paragraphs—one for the exile and one for the return—the return happens as part of a triggered ability. Banishing Light, on the other hand, has a single ability that creates an exile effect with a duration. This means that the two cards operate differently in practice, and the distinction is important.
You might, therefore, be remembering that a single resolving spell or ability always resolves completely before players can do anything else.
For an ability, the bounds are determined by the paragraphs themselves. Each ability has its own paragraph. All instructions in that ability are executed during the resolution processes. Different abilities are handled independently.
For spells, the bounds are more or less the entire text of the card. Therefore, it doesn't really matter for Macabre Waltz or Electrolyze whether the second instruction is written in a new paragraph or not.
May 21, 2016 10:42 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
So I just looked at a sample of some 250 instants and sorceries to try to get a feel for when they use different paragraphs on them. The shortlist of times they will make something an extra line seems to be:
Cantrips: "Draw a card" seems to always get its own line.
Spells with Abilities: A spell with an ability will always have it on a different line. Storm, Entwine, Convoke, and Raid are examples of keyword abilities or of ability words that will often fall in this category. Banefire is an example of a spell with an ability that isn't a keyword. Abilities are not to be confused with effects. Effects are what happens when the spell resolves. Effects are combined unless one of the effects falls into one of these categories.
Spells with Casting Restrictions: Feast of Blood and Master Warcraft are two examples of this type of card. I guess this could be considered an ability of the card, but I see sufficient difference to give it its own point.
Spells that Can Target the Same Thing More than Once: The title of this point is a bit long, but it is the best way I can think of to explain it. Cards like Common Bond, Seeds of Strength, and Agony Warp have multiple lines. Cards like Reap What Is Sown and Arc Trail do not.
Modal Spells: New templating breaks modal spells into a bulleted list. Each mode has a separate line.
Other than those five cases it seems that they combine all effects into one block of text. This seems to be the default since as you say it all happens without a priority pass and so it makes sense to have it be a single block of text.
May 21, 2016 11:35 a.m.
Thanks for the elaborate replies, and for the research work from Gidgetimer. Didn't mean to occupy anyone for this long... :) You definitely have me convinced at this point.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
New paragraphs are used to denote a new ability or effect. Drawing a card isn't related to doing two damage, so it gets a new paragraph. Discarding the card, though not a cost in the game sense, represents an additional toll that returning the two creature cards exacted upon you as the caster.
The most definitive example I can think of where different effects actually matters in the rules of the game is Oblivion Ring v Banishing Light. On the surface the two cards do the same thing. Because they gave Oblivion Ring two abilities, the abilities can be abused to permanently exile cards. They "fixed" it with Banishing Light so that the single concept they were trying to represent in the card was a single effect.
May 21, 2016 9:58 a.m.