PROXIES ARE THE DEVIL!
General forum
Posted on Jan. 12, 2016, 10:20 a.m. by TMBRLZ
So I was just made aware of something by my Manager at my LGS.
Our tournament has been running "Casual Magic" (Unsanctioned) Full Proxy Legacy tournaments at the shop on Sunday nights in tandem with Draft. Tandem meaning, we see whichever one is going to fire. Sundays are pretty quiet in general.
ANYHOW - (I digress) - Apparently my Manager just discovered that according to the WPN (Wizards Play Network) that no WPN-sanctioned venue is allowed to use proxies in their tournaments, regardless of whether or not the event is sanctioned.
Obviously we're no longer going to be running our Sunday night Legacy tournament (which is sad because it's a new thing that was quite popular with our regulars). My Manager apparently also caught wind of other stores who had their licenses revoked for running proxy tournaments and/or ignoring warnings.
I personally have to say I think it's kind of a b/s rule to have. I can see from a strongarm economic standpoint why they would do it. But then it just looks bad because it is strongarm-ing (if I may) your consumer base.
If anything proxy events inspire people to build real decks for a format they may not have cards in yet so that they can use it in real sanctioned events. A lot more people at the shop have started building legacy as a result of the proxy tournament.
I'm curious to see what everybody here thinks on it.
VampireArmy says... #3
Meh. Wotc gives you a set of rules to follow in exchange for endorsing your store with their product. Seems odd that people would lose a licence over unsanctioned events unless there was prizes involved.
January 12, 2016 10:25 a.m.
"Proxies aren't the devil, they're practice." - Bruce Wayne
January 12, 2016 10:30 a.m.
I'm inclined to agree with ojmandias, I'm broke but playing with proxies has lead me to start building a competitive modern deck.
January 12, 2016 10:34 a.m.
VampireArmy - I will say we did offer store credit prizes (as we do with all our tournaments) for the Legacy tournaments. But we made no profit from it. It was $2 and $2 back out into the prize pool per player. Store credit prizes to 3-1 and better and divided as necessary as all our tournaments are.
It's not like Wizards is losing anything on the spot. The only point where Wizards is losing money is them not actually buying Legacy cards. But not everybody wants to spend money on something if they don't know whether or not they like it or it's going to work in a meta and that's what the proxy event was for.
It just all feels like very sour business to me.
January 12, 2016 10:36 a.m.
I play in a highly competitive EDH group that allows full proxy decks. That being said, Wizards absolutely should have the ability to enforce no proxies in sanctioned events.
January 12, 2016 10:38 a.m.
@TheDevicer - sanctioned events, most definitely. But I think the issue here is that WoTC is enforcing the no proxy rule all the time, even for a store's own events, solely because the store is endorsed by Wizards.
January 12, 2016 10:53 a.m.
Proxies aren't legal in any sanctioned event regardless of format. The only time you see a proxy is if a judge issues you one because of specific reason x, y, or z.
So yeah, it seems a little overbearing to shut them off entirely for a venue due to affiliation.
January 12, 2016 11:04 a.m.
twistedmage says... #11
Most of my decks are built with proxies to see if they work the way I built them too, once the deck is good I try to get the card which is one of the biggest reasons I joined this site. Yes I agree with proxies being not allowed in sanctioned events but proxies should be good for testing
January 12, 2016 11:22 a.m.
I'm pretty anti-proxy, but I'm not sure where I fall on this one. I'm just gonna sit back and see how the dust settles.
January 12, 2016 11:34 a.m.
Proxies do not promote players buying the real cards. In fact, if they can regularly use their proxies (for your legacy event for example) then their only incentive to buy the real cards is if they plan to play in an officially sanctioned event. If their only opportunity to play Legacy is at your shop and they can win prizes using their proxies then they would actually be stupid to invest in the real cards. There literally is no need to acquire new cards when they're not actually required for you to play and win prizes.
For those of you who claim that playing with proxies has made you start investing in a new format, that's a little misleading. Your not actually investing in a new format because you played with "fake cards", your investing in a new format because you finally got some experience with it and enjoyed it. Yes, using proxies may have helped you get that experience but it was not specifically the use of "fake cards" that made you want to start investing in something new, it was the experience you had while playing, which could have easily been obtained using legal cards and doesn't require proxies in order to obtain. Also, there are plenty of places online (some good some not so good) that you can play magic. If your using proxies solely for testing, then you could easily do so online, for free, and without creating proxies.
Really the only reason for a shop to host proxy events is to draw in business. A store doing so is basically trying to use Magic's name to draw in business and make extra money, while simultaneously allowing their customers to commit fraud against WotC. As people show up each week to play the store makes money but despite the fact that everyone is playing magic, not one person has to actually invest in the game of magic. In which case, it then makes perfect sense for WotC to prevent their sellers from hosting proxy legal events as it's essentially the store benefiting off the reputation magic has created while simultaneously undermining WotC
January 12, 2016 11:40 a.m.
I've traded Proxy tokens for Magic cards. Does that make me evil? I don't care. lol Honestly though, I'm a huge proxy player, and I de-foil and proxy foil myself for custom tokens, funny/comedy cards, and sometimes in EDH when I don't want to purchase X i.e. Mana Drain Force of Will ABUR Duals, etc. I also proxy cards in order to playtest different decks and cards because I'd rather see if something works before spending $$$ on them.
I'm not going to get involved with the Proxy Tournament at an LGS debate.
January 12, 2016 11:44 a.m.
No offense abenz419, but I feel like your statement is incredibly one-sided.
IN OTHER NEWS: This is apparently stepping up because it's now in question based on the statement:
"According to Wizards Play Network policy, no proxies are allowed at WPN-sanctioned venues"
Both my LGS Owner and Manager and the management at the other LGS in town received this same email.
That line is incredibly vague in that it is now questioned whether or not we're talking about just tournaments or the whole damn store grounds.
If it's the latter then this has become a much larger issue.
So as it stands for our area, both LGS's are not allowing proxies in play in the store regardless of what you're doing until it's been cleared up. Owner is going to call Wizards when we open up at 12:00 p.m. central.
January 12, 2016 11:59 a.m.
My LGS allowed 15 proxies on modern thursday, and I heartily disagree with you @abenz419. I'm 15, and I started playing modern at 12. My very first deck was goblins, and the proxies didn't serve as an excuse to get out of buying the cards, they merely served as a way to test 'Is this deck something I should invest in'. Now I continued to proxy my Goblin Guides for a couple months, however when a grand prix rolled around I had become confident enough with my deck that I ended up buying 4 guides. The proxies are overall (i think) a good thing for the market (especially WOTC) as the more people get engrossed with a format, the more likely they are to finally get their deck so they can play in some higher up tournaments. And yes, the experience is what makes people invest into a format, not the proxies directly, but I'm more likely to invest into a format when I know I can win rather than me playing an extreme budget deck that just loses every time. Losing is not fun, thus psychologically leading me to NOT invest.
And a quick note, my store's prize payout was literally equal to the amount of money they received. Any money left over from draws/entrance fees would be randomly redistributed.
January 12, 2016 12:06 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #17
It's not very vague.
It says right in the statement "venues" meaning, the store ground.
This is a new emphasis though, add the old rule was only in sanctioned events.
I'm with JWiley129: I'm going to sit this one out and wait for the dust to settle. Especially since I never use proxies.
January 12, 2016 12:09 p.m.
Here guys, let's vote on it at a poll here.
Also shall we vote on whether or not proxies are good for business? Why yes, here.
January 12, 2016 12:12 p.m.
The way I see it, hosting unsanctioned proxy tournaments for something like Legacy or Vintage is perfectly fine. It's not taking away from Wizard's potential income because an insanely large number of players interested in playing in this manner simply don't have the funds available to play those formats to begin with. Yes, there are lots of players willing to put forth the money to play those formats. However, if you don't allow proxies, many shops simply couldn't host those events. That's why conducting something like a Sat evening legacy event is practically impossible for most shops. There simply aren't enough players capable of partaking in them.
There's only so many copies of cards in the world too. Even if there were players willing to pay to play, they can't all do it. This is only going to get worse as time passes as copies are lost or moved into the hands of collectors.
Huge barriers exist for regular events at shop level if proxies are illegal. In my mind, this problem would disappear if WotC started sanctioning proxy legacy events and took small portions of shop revenue. Or fuck the reserved list.
January 12, 2016 12:20 p.m. Edited.
Well apparently according to an email my Manager just received directly from WOTC that this isn't a proxy police situation, as my Manager put it.
_"... they told us we should not be 'policing it,' but that we should not be promoting proxy tournaments, which we will obviously no longer be holding."
_That's better than what the fear of total proxy ban was. It's still rather upsetting though because, I share with the majority opinion and the situations that TheDevicer and rorofat gave put that viewpoint rather eloquently.
I feel like, especially from what TheDevicer mentioned in his comment, they are ultimately going to hurt the value of the formats and their market.
Proxies are unfortunately a two edged sword when it comes to WOTC, though it seems they only chose to utilize the edge aimed at the players. Which means it's the edge facing them that's going to swing back and hit them eventually. This could potentially see some serious market damage to Legacy and Vintage staples. SCG did enough to hurt Legacy on their own.
I don't like it at all.
Side Note - You've got some impressive diction and syntax for a 15 year old rorofat.
January 12, 2016 12:43 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #21
Oh look, Wizards wants to lose money. Let's help them.
January 12, 2016 12:49 p.m.
January 12, 2016 12:54 p.m.
Deckologist says... #24
TheDevicer full proxy? How have you not killed people where they stand?
I had some shmuck pull out a proxy mana drain on me. So naturally just to put him in his place i used my mana drain to counter it.
I've never minded people using proxies that I know are in other decks or our shop just doesn't have. I do mind if people proxy a Moat, Timetwister, and a Chains of Mephistopheles.
January 12, 2016 12:57 p.m.
@Deckologist.
Commander's a social format. All my friends are pretty competitive and like brewing stuff. We also have vastly different interests outside of MtG. There's also a few of us (like me) that like blowing our money on other formats. The reigning idea in our group is that by allowing people to proxy, we can see more decks being played (we play a lot - one full day per week is the goal), no one has to put funds towards a kitchen table format, we can use cash towards our other interests, and the playgroup never becomes pay to win.
When all of us have proxied 2k to 5k decks, the playgroup balances itself out nicely. All of us prefer to play that way, so there's no real conflicts. We can NEVER play with people from outside of our group with these decks, but that's not an issue for us.
Everyone's happy. Even the people getting countered by proxied mana drains. Well, not really. No one likes getting drained.
January 12, 2016 1:21 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #26
Not only do I think Wizards should allow proxy Legacy events, I think they should encourage them.
There are a lot of cards on the Legacy reserve list that they promised not to reprint. Fair enough. They should keep that promise so those cards maintain their value as collectibles.
But- with a finite number of those cards out there being played and occasionally damaged, those cards become increasingly rare and therefore prohibitive to buy. That means the price of playing Legacy will increase forever, and will at no point be more inviting to new players. So it pretty much has to eventually go the way of Vintage unless something changes.
I think that Wizards allowing proxies, and even licensing their intellectual property to allow SCG or someone else to print and rent (cheaply) clearly-marked sanctioned proxies for events would revive Legacy considerably while not destroying the value of the original collectibles.
January 12, 2016 1:27 p.m.
The only time I think proxying is OK is when you have a legitimate copy of the card.
Allowing people to proxy for any event whatsoever leaves no incentive that actually get the cards. What's the point?
January 12, 2016 1:40 p.m.
Except your sort of proving my point rorofat, the only incentive you had to buy the real cards was the fact you wanted to participate in the grand prix. It's easy to say you would have eventually gotten your Goblin Guide but in reality after playing multiple times with your proxies (and having infinite resources already online on how effective goblin guide is in modern and in what types of decks) you didn't actually buy them until you came across a situation where you couldn't get by with your proxies.
Also, your stores prize payout is irrelevant. They don't have to make money from the entry fee in order to make money from you or others. By regularly offering a chance to play with "fake cards" they draw more people into their store. The more people that come into the shop, the more likely they are to sell other items in store (refreshments, boosters, sleeves, play mats, other games, etc.). So, even if 100% of the entry fee is returned as a prize payout they can generate revenue just by drawing you in regularly.
@TheDevicer If wizards started hosting sanctioned proxy legacy events, then why would anyone purchase the actual cards? There literally would be no reason to since they wouldn't be required to play. If people have no reason to purchase the cards then prices of staples would plummet, not just in legacy either. Think about cards that are staples in multiple formats like legacy and modern. If half the magic community no longer needs to purchase those cards because they play legacy then it will have an impact on other formats as well. The card market and entire collections would crash and be next to worthless. After spending 20+ years building a reputation and a community, I highly doubt WotC would be willing to throw that away just so people can play legacy without having to actually purchase a single card.
January 12, 2016 1:41 p.m.
I have to admit abenz419 makes some fair points now under the viewpoint of the fact that he's not making any assumptions. Not assuming people would be honorable or respectful of the game or appreciate the game enough to eventually have a real deck. You could say that many people would, but you have no proof until the opportunity is given.
And he is also highly correct about the store income. I almost argued that point myself but I understood the trick to that already, considering I work for an LGS. We lose money in small amounts on most of our tournaments and we sell most of our MTG product at or barely above cost. That's how we've remained competitive with the other LGS and for the most part put them out of the Magic game in town.
Our real money comes from sales on Singles. But you can't sell any Singles if nobody is in the store.
I don't think proxies really deserve a place in sanctioned play outside of their already present and judge approved replacement use. If the question of the stability of a format and available global inventory of a format came into question, I would be okay with a 15 card proxy rule and maybe ban some certain cards (like Goyf, Mana Drain, JTMS, etc.) from being proxied as to stabilize power levels, but even then, if sanctioned play can do without, it should do without.
January 12, 2016 1:55 p.m.
@abenz419
I'm talking shop-level here. It's an environment where those kinds of events simply can't exist to begin with.
Any and all other events hosted for Legacy/Vintage would require actual cards. That means any existing demand would still be there and people would have the same incentives to buy those cards as they did before this change.
Local shop proxy events wouldn't destroy the value of collections as small time local events wouldn't take away from the crowd attending events like legacy GPs. Those individuals looking to pimp out their EDH decks, enter large events, and increase their collections would still maintain the price of cards.
If anything, local shop events could provide players with an introduction to formats they'd otherwise be willing to dismiss. These players could go on to buy the deck they've been proxy playing at their shop to attend a GP.
Besides, Wizards doesn't actually benefit monetarily from the second hand market. Allowing proxy play at a small scale would give them a way to both promote less popular formats and get revenue.
January 12, 2016 1:56 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #31
NecroPony- unless you work for WotC, the point is to play the game and have fun.
January 12, 2016 2:03 p.m.
Thanks TMBRLZ, as for the proxy use itself, I think the safest way to do this is to host 'free newbie' tournaments with small payouts (like 2 dollars in store credit to the winner) at a lgs, with up to 30 proxys allowed. This allows people to test MTG to see if it's right for them while encourageing creative deckbuilding. Plus, you get the experience of meeting and interacting with people that online play lacks. Even removing all prizes whatsoever and just having a casual tournament could be fun because you get to play against decks you've never seen while having fun with your friends.
You are wrong abenz419 about the card market plummeting if proxies became allowed in legacy. Reason: I know plenty of people that collect powerful cards (like FoW and Recall) with no intention of playing them, it's similar to comic book collectors - you have the item for the sole purpose of being able to say 'ooh looky here at what I have' rather than the actual physical value. I mean, if you had a 3000 dollar issue of a marvel book would you just flip it open and start reading? Probably not. Also, tell me exactly how does WotC make money on the second hand market? They don't. The only reason they would seek to maintain the value of cards in vintage and legacy would be to keep the players satiated, however at some point they will either have to A. abandon those formats completely, or B. remove the reserve list. Either way, the prices fall massively.
January 12, 2016 2:05 p.m.
There's some new info I dug up. The store that got the first email was caught because they were streaming their Proxy Legacy tournament on Twitch. So really they had it coming.
January 12, 2016 2:12 p.m.
Yeah my Manager was under the impression the original warning was a hand-me down from WotC, which was debunked when he was responded to by the WotC employee.
January 12, 2016 2:54 p.m.
Also, thank you guys for being much more civil than the MTGS thread about this. They've already devolved into "WIZARDS IS TRYING TO KILL VINTAGE/LEGACY!" and pseudo-personal attacks.
But between here and there I'm slowly getting a handle on my opinion on this matter. There are so many layers to this, we might as well be watching Shrek
January 12, 2016 3:41 p.m.
See that's where your wrong rorofat. Pure collectors would be the only ones interested in the actual cards as players would not need them if they could use proxies. A card's price is most greatly affected by scarcity and demand. If all of the demand for a card is gone (except the small percentage of pure collectors) consequently more will become available and it'll be less scarce. This will greatly affect a card's price. Which in turn will make it a nostalgia piece for collects and less of a "oooo looky here" piece. Consequently, this could even further affect prices as they becomes less collectible to those without that nostalgia aspect.
Also I never said anything about WotC making money on the secondary market. I said if they did this it would cause the card market and entire collections to collapse. Then I said that it's highly unlikely that WotC would throw away their reputation and the community they've built for over 20 years just so a people can play legacy without actually purchasing a single card. It has absolutely nothing to do with making money on the secondary market and everything to do with maintaining the game they built and not alienating it's player base.
January 12, 2016 4:06 p.m.
I think WotC's reputation is already pretty tarnished, but I do see your point on this matter. I am no specialist in economics, but it would appear to me as though cards like Black Lotus and less so Jace, the Mind Sculptor are sought after primarily as collector's items, seeing as the amount of high tier legacy tournaments being run anymore (outside of online play) has dropped to an all time low, and legacy too is on the decline. The problem is with an entry level bar so high, many people will simply move to modern instead. This is good for buisness as Modern (as a format) is currently flourishing. So I pose another question for you: Once Legacy/Vintage effectively 'die off' as formats, should stores be allowed to run weekly 'proxy' tournaments just so people can enjoy playing with that power level? Or should the cost of having fun be more expensive than buying twenty thousand boxes of altoids? I think that the only place where Vintage and Legacy are reasonable formats in the future is MTGO, which has done an incredible job of supporting them.
January 12, 2016 4:20 p.m.
@TheDevicer What your missing is that if people can regularly attend weekly legacy proxy events that are sanctioned then people have no real incentive to suddenly spend $500+ to make their deck real to go and compete at a GP. Now I'm not saying people wouldn't attend them, especially with the implications they have on the pro tour. I'm saying that people who don't regularly attend GP's have no incentive to spend the money to make their deck real when the only time they'll need the real cards is likely for that one GP that was close by. This gives Legacy GP's no potential for player growth and over time they'll diminish as it becomes increasingly easier to play every week at your LGS where you don't even need to spend the money on the real cards.
Also, you say "Besides, Wizards doesn't actually benefit monetarily from the second hand market. Allowing proxy play at a small scale would give them a way to both promote less popular formats and get revenue.".... First off, WotC is not going to allow some local shops to do this and not allow others. IF they did allow sanctioned proxy events it would be at every LGS. The amount of local game shops that offer MTG products worldwide is far to great for this to be "small scale", which is why it would be impossible for something like regular sanctioned proxy tournaments to not affect card prices. Secondly, how would this help WotC get revenue? You said yourself that they make nothing from the second hand market, which is where almost every card in the format comes from. Plus, as I've already discussed the only reason people would have to purchase the real cards is to attend a GP, but as it becomes increasingly easier to play with proxies fewer people will find it reasonable to spend that kind of money for what will likely be a one time thing. This means lower turn out for GP's.
January 12, 2016 4:35 p.m.
@rorofat, well that comes back to demand. If legacy effectively died off as a format then staples would obviously be in less demand. I would suspect that the prices of some of the lesser staples would actually start to drop before the format effectively was finished simply as people tried to unload cards in an attempt to get out before losing too much value on their collections because I'm sure they'll see the end coming. Similar to what happens at rotation, but on a more gradual scale and less of a sudden change.
January 12, 2016 4:44 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #42
The argument seems pretty simple from each side.
LGS and Sanctioned Tournament Players: Keep proxies as far away from my shop as possible. It's just another way for counterfeits to find they're way into circulation which is bad for everyone.
Wizards: Trick steps outa line you give em the backhand. Don't mess with ma money!
Kitchen Table Group: Cards shouldn't cost money if I want them. Fuck it, let's print it out and slap it on a Forest!
January 12, 2016 6:45 p.m. Edited.
Imo if proxys become legal card prices will drop. But in the process people who may want to get into collecting or own certain cards for edh/cube/highlander will begin to buy in so I don't think prices will plummet.
January 12, 2016 6:53 p.m.
I think you are not giving kitchen table mtg enough credit. They are not simplistic people. Personally I enjoy playing a complex game unrestricted by price simply because I like legacy and vintage even tho I can barely play modern. Part of it is an issue of accessibility, and I think the "fuck the ones who can't afford it" attitude is why legacy is hurting right now.
January 12, 2016 6:57 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #46
I really don't care about Legacy TBH. Magic is just a hobby and I don't feel bad for those who can't afford it.
Sometimes you want that ripe fruit at the top of the tree that's out of reach. You could chop the tree down and get at that fruit for instant gratification or you can go make a ladder and pick ripe fruit whenever you want from then on out.
January 12, 2016 7:31 p.m.
travelsonic says... #47
@JWiley129 Tha's nothing, reddit is even more of a hellhole right now on the issue - not surprised, since WotC/Trick Jarret did post a response in one of the threads that IMO at least REALLY smacked of unclarity, patronizing, and just plane .... I dunno what. (currently downvoted down to -50 XD), one of the bigger issues being how they conflate proxying and counterfeiting, to the point where they //seem//, clear as day, to count a card with sharpie on it as a "counterfeit."
January 12, 2016 9:06 p.m.
travelsonic - Yeah, Reddit is a shithole right now...
January 12, 2016 10:20 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 I think your attitude of 'don't have money? Not my problem' is both advantageous yet degrading. Money is a problem for a lot of people, especially right now and I think that making magic cheaper to enter could be very beneficial to communities. It provides an enviroment where growth is encouraged, especially for people who are personally going through a rough time. I have never had this problem, however one of my friends got into a really bad spot and magic served as a way for him to escape it.
Also your analogy of a tree is very on point. Some people care about the experience, them being the ones that proxy, and others care about the physical tcg, being the ones that collect and build decks.
Everyone has a slightly different viewpoint, though I think we can agree that at a SMALL level, proxies do not hurt magic as a game.
January 12, 2016 11:12 p.m.
travelsonic says... #50
@JWiley129 heh, now Trick Jarret's post is down to -908... I don't think I've ever seen a post downvoted to near -1,000 quite so fast. 0_o
ojmandias says... #2
My casual play group uses proxies pretty heavily for competitive magic. We're a bunch of broke college kids lol. But it has pushed us to make actual competitive decks like rg tron, bw tokens, and black devotion. I personally like proxies because you get a feel for the deck before investing and you can see if you like it or not and how it performs in the meta.
January 12, 2016 10:25 a.m.