This should be a thing...
Custom Cards forum
Posted on Aug. 24, 2014, 7:02 p.m. by UmbrotheUmbreon
Seriously, this is a pretty well balanced creature that also is amazing for EDH. I don't know though, would Wizards ever print something along these lines for a BUG general, or am I just hoping for too much? .w. (Also I apologize ahead of time if this was placed incorrectly. Sometimes it is hard to determine where to put something that could potentially fit in multiple places).
SwiftDeath says... #3
This only fits in one place and that is in the Custom Cards forum.
I think that this is a very weak general. My reasons are that it gives your opponents all the same benefits and they don't take the repercussion of the discard that you do. You automatically have to discard a card during your upkeep just for casting him the first time and it just becomes worse if your opponent has any removal. I think that this would be okay for a BUG Group Hug build but outside of that you are giving your opponent way to much value.
August 24, 2014 7:30 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #4
I guess discarding in these colours isn't as bad as it would be in others, but it is still pretty lopsided in favour of the opponent. Maybe that's the point; your commander is actively screwing you over so people will consider you less threatening and not hurt you while you are group-hugging everyone...
August 24, 2014 7:39 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
Pretty sure the point of the discard is to enable Reanimator shenanigans. And while Sultai has the Necromantic sub-theme in Khans I feel that may just be zombies since Reanimation fits more squarely in Abzan.
The other thing is that while this does give benefits to everyone the power of the benefits are too high. The entire game of MTG is based around a single draw and a single land drop per turn. Giving 2 Exploration s and Ancestral Recall for 0 each turn is a bit unbalancing. I applaud trying to end games quicker but that is too much power per turn.
(Footnote: drawing 2 cards without spending a card is equivalent to drawing 3 while having to spend a card. That is why I used Ancestral Recall instead of Divination as the draw equivalent.)
August 24, 2014 7:55 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #6
This card is terrible. The turn rotation passes, you discard to the upkeep trigger, and then someone kills it.
August 24, 2014 8:43 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #7
I mainly was hoping for a Group Hug general that took the target off you for as long as possible, helping everyone out. The idea was to go with a general that used two Rites of Flourishing but at BUG realized it was broken to a degree. To help balance it I made it so that the general wasn't able to do much combat-wise and to level the fact that blue is an accessed color I added the discard effect. This helped limit the handsize problem and also allowed yourself to do other things (as pookypuppy6 pointed out Reanimator).
I know it isn't balanced, hence why I don't work for Wizards, but I was hoping for something along the lines of this.
August 24, 2014 8:47 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #8
Gee thanks TurboFagoot -.- If I wanted my thoughts and hopes to be bashed I'd have gone to DeviantArt. I wasn't looking for a competitive aspect on this, but moreso on hopes that something group hug-y would be released for a BUG general.
August 24, 2014 8:48 p.m.
I actually like this commander. It's very group-huggy. However, if you want the abilities to relate to each other, the first triggered ability (the discard) should apply to each player at the beginning of their turns (like how the 2nd triggered ability affects each player's draw steps). That way every player is affected by the benefit/drawbacks of this card.
August 24, 2014 8:55 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #10
Oh I'm sorry.
Great card! Everything you do is wonderful and without fault! Teach me how you do this!
If you don't want criticisms then why post it at all?
August 24, 2014 9:13 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #11
@Krayhaft: That makes sense, thanks for pointing out what could be changed to make it better
@TurboFagoot: There is a difference between criticism and insulting. You were insutling. You offered no way to make the card better/more balanced, you didn't even say why you thought the card was bad. All you essentially did was say "This card sucks kbai". That's not criticism. I've taken the criticism from the others better cause they listed why the card is bad and what could make it better. You didn't. Also, I never said I did anything amazing, and even admitted I am not a great designer when it comes to balance.
August 24, 2014 10 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #12
As a creative person, I know how valuable criticism can be. At the same time, I know how valuable any feedback is. If you want to turn something away or get uppity because something wasn't thorough, that's your prerogative, but you should really learn to accept any and all types of criticism, even the blunt.
August 24, 2014 10:03 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #13
I don't mind if you tell me it's terrible, but when you literally say nothing as to why, or give a suggestion to make it better, then it stops becoming criticism and starts becoming a hate comment. Like I said, I am not a great card designer with power balance, and I wasn't asking to have this card rated, but was curious if Wizards would print something SIMILAR to this. I am usually open to criticism and feedback, but without anything to back up your statement, I take it as nothing but hating and trolling. Now if you want to tell me why it's a terrible card and what to change to make it better, then I would happily talk out this conversation and see what the problem is. I am not unreasonable or uncivil, just annoyed with haters.
August 24, 2014 10:09 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #14
The intent of my statement isn't at all changed between "I hate it" and "I hate it because", I fail to see how one is trolling and the other isn't.
But if you want me to tell you why it's terrible, I did in my original comment. Way too easy to get blown out, the card is presented as being nearly all downside in a competitive environment, or any environment that isn't babby's first casual EDH.
That's why it sucks, I explained why (Twice) and I still hate it. I'm also being pretty rude in this comment, but this is somehow easier for you to swallow.
If you're going to get "annoyed with haters", you should never enter the creative space. You don't have the fortitude to put something of yours out there.
August 24, 2014 10:15 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #15
I like Font of Mythos and I like Azusa, Lost but Seeking . Smash them together and you get this, with some reanimator upside. It definitely has some balancing issues, but it's still workable. I can't argue that I would try to use this.
I would consider making it one extra land drop rather than two as that can get out of control pretty fast. Especially with a built in draw engine to keep the land coming.
It would be interesting to make the discard trigger happen only on your turn but be "each player." It would a) encourage you to sacrifice your general to cast it more often and b) encourage your opponents to use their cards up before your turn. Lower toughness could be good too, Azusa's only a 1/2 for a reason.
August 24, 2014 10:16 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #16
@TurboFagoot: .....You clearly are not getting what I'm saying, so I'm just gonna stop speaking with you.
@MindAblaze!: Yeah the idea came from mixing two Rites of Flourishing into one card. I could modify it to say "At the beginning of your upkeep, each player discards X cards, where X is the number of times ~ has been cast from the command zone." That would discourage people from killing it too often, and encourage them to leave it out. Either way I made this as a base to see if you guys thought Wizards would ever print something like it. Obviously they'd balance it better than me, but this is a general idea for a general I could love to use. I just hate the current list of BUG Commanders. None of them are....group hug worthy :c
August 24, 2014 10:23 p.m.
I'm with TurboFagoot on this one. This card doesn't do what you want it to do. Most group hug generals give you some sort of late-game to play around with. This one does nothing of the sort. You're losing card advantage and doesn't actively help you "win" the game. Sure there are some ways to make it work to your favor, but they aren't really worth it in Commander. It's an OK discard outlet for Reanimator, but it's too slow. Plus you'll be left in the dust of the other players as they build up a board MUCH quicker than you can. Also, TurboFagoot's original complaint still stands. I'll copy-paste it if you didn't read it "The turn rotation passes, you discard to the upkeep trigger, and then someone kills it." People will do this, and you will be sad. Sure it helps you discard more cards (if you recast it), but that just means you're at least 2 land drops behind each of your opponents.
Also, this may just be me, but it doesn't feel Sultai (BUG) to me. Sure all the abilities fit in those colors, but I don't see a Sultai colored general being group huggy. But that's just me.
August 24, 2014 10:35 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #18
@JWiley129: He named a very common scenario that could happen to pretty much ANY creature, so to say that is a reason this card is bad is poor. If your deck can't protect a creature don't you think you should rethink how your deck is built? I mean, this IS the colors of counterspell, bounce, hexproof granting, and other shenanigans that can protect the creature. I'm sorry I didn't give it hexproof, pro all colors, and such cause that totally makes it balanced. All I asked was something more than just "Sucks cause it dies" which is essentially what that comment was.
Your comment on the other hand listed other ways that this card is bad (such as having no real win condition, giving too much board control to everyone else, etc). While you may not have made a suggestion to make it better, you at least explained your reasons for this card being bad, whereas TurboFagoot didn't (and yes I did read it. I always read comments on my threads).
August 24, 2014 10:41 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #19
Here allow me to state why this card is bad, just like I did in my original comment.
"The turn rotation passes, you discard to the upkeep trigger, and then someone kills it."
That is why the card is bad, because it leaves you open to getting blown out.
What? I'm repeating myself? Oh right, I am, because OP seems to be too butthurt to admit that I explained my reasoning all along.
August 24, 2014 10:51 p.m.
In order to get around the drawback of getting blown out before you take advantage of its benefits, you should give it flash. That way, there are less instances where your opponents benefit but you do not. Also, consider giving it an actual body to swing with. Even if as a group hug general it will never attack, having that power gives you a good option. 2/2, 3/3, or even 4/4 is pretty well costed for a creature such as this.
Not every general has to be a god-tier, 'do everything' general. Some aren't meant to be played competitively, and are just meant for people to go 'how am I supposed to build around this?'.
Of course it can die to removal before you can benefit from it, but in my experience 'dies to removal', when used alone, is a poor argument for whether a creature is bad or not.
August 24, 2014 11:39 p.m.
Maybe instead of the discard, make it like reduce everyone's max hand size by 3. That way everyone gets more cards and plays more lands, but at the same time can't keep a full 7 on constantly.
Also enables discard eot, but less likely to blow you out. Still agreeable to most players, but not crippling advantage (until Reliquary Tower .
August 25, 2014 2 a.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #22
@UmbrotheUmbreon: think with group hug generals it's typically designed that while everyone gets benefit, you get benefit more than most, or there is an exchange of benefits. I think this card reads bad (though it doesn't necessarily operate badly) because it reads (again, I re-emphasize READS) bad because there seems to be no immediate upside for you. Zedruu the Greathearted has an ability that helps everyone, but then an ability that quite clearly gives positive benefits to you. So, maybe incorporate that into your design somewhere? Because if I was to critique one thing, I'd say it just reads unfavourably.
How you be BTW Umbro? Long time no speak.
August 25, 2014 6:18 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #23
@TurboFagoot: Once again, your only argument to why this card is bad is it dies to removal. That doesn't make it bad. I'm sure there are PLENTY of decks that wouldn't mind discarding from their hand, and to waste a removal spell on something that benefits the entire group just to set that person back could actually bite the spell's controller in the ass, considering he doesn't just screw that player out of benefits, he screws EVERYONE out of benefits. State a REAL reason why this card is bad like everyone else did, instead of using the "dies to removal" argument, cause that argument is complete bullshit. I'm not butthurt, you're just pissed that I don't like what you have to say cause it isn't constructive.
@Krayhaft: Well I was concerned about it being too powerful and drawing a huge target on the player's head before the game begins (like a lot of generals do). I guess a 2/1 could work, but with the ability to regenerate? I guess changing it to everyone discards could help keep him alive more, so that way everyone loses advantage if he keeps dying.
@Jp3ngu1nb0y: Ehhh, that just seems lackluster. I mean, I would prefer the discard over limited handsize, because then it can turn into something where you're discarding far more than this way.
@pookypuppy6: Ah, well that's where that's where I went wrong. I thought it was supposed to give same benefits for everyone (Howling Mine , Rites of Flourishing , Helm of Awakening , etc all give the same benefits to all players). I have no problem with someone saying I have a bad card, I just hate people who just say "It's bad" and either give no reason or one that is completely redundant (like dies to removal). By the way, I'm good. Been working on a new project that will be awesome when completed :3
August 25, 2014 2:59 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #24
This should be a better, more balanced card that also aims at what it wants to do. It helps keep people from slaughtering it repeatedly and still benefits everyone.
August 25, 2014 3:07 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #25
@UmbrotheUmbreon: Good to hear, I'm on a Magic Set Editor project (you may have noticed all those annoying Quarahal posts in the Custom Cards forum). Do tell me about your project at some point!
I try to give as worthwhile criticism as I can while reviewing cards, though my often frank manner of speaking could be improved. When I meant group hug cards I was thinking more Zedruu the Greathearted rather than Howling Mine so to speak, but hey, semantics I guess.
August 25, 2014 3:41 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #26
@pookypuppy6: I actually haven't, cause I haven't been too active here lately. Though if all goes well you won't just hear about my project, you'll be playing it :P
See I have no problem with constructive criticism, even if it's a "This sucks because...." so long as you explain why and back up your claims to it. That's why I was getting heated with earlier posts cause his only argument was "dies to removal" and that is the lamest reason to say a card is bad. He also provided no ways on how to improve the card so that also got on my nerves. When I hear Group Hug I think cards that give all players benefits to take the target off you.
August 25, 2014 3:53 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #27
"Dies to removal" isn't a very useful argument, except for certain cards (can't think of which ones though).
I look forward to playing whatever it is you ae cooking up! Is this your Pokemon based set? I still remember helping you work on that!
August 25, 2014 4:08 p.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #28
@pookypuppy6: I don't think it's a useful argument ever, since everything dies to removal of some kind.
Yeah I also remember you no longer talking to me :c No it's something bigger, nonMagic related :3
August 25, 2014 5:01 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #29
Sorry about that, I changed computers and didn't get Skype on there for a while. Also, life really took me over at that time.
August 25, 2014 5:09 p.m.
lothshteth says... #30
The new iteration is much better, still hurts you but hurts everyone more if you build around it. I think its fairly balanced as a 1/4 and the fact that it helps the opponents first. Definitely don't give it flash. These kind of cards are supposed to work this way. Screw Dictate of Kruphix ! Feels alot more group hug now as opposed to masochistic santa version of old.
August 25, 2014 6:27 p.m.
pookypuppy6 says... #31
@UmbrotheUmbreon: If you want to take a few sneaky peeks at my current project, here's the links to my current threads.
Custom Set Quarahal: Help With Focus
Custom Set Quarahal: Fob Watch Challenge
Custom Set Quarahal: Wardriven Challenge
Because shameless plugs are shameless.
August 25, 2014 6:31 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #32
It's not that it dies to removal. A previously mentioned, seemingly similar general, Zedruu, dies to removal. The problem is the opportunity cost. You play Zedruu, someone kills it, and you're not even down a card because it's your general. That's perfectly fine.
You play this guy, someone kills it after you discard, and you're down several cards because they all drew, and you only discarded. That opportunity cost is huge. This is why Master of the Feast is a terrible card. Just like Desecration Demon it dies to removal, but you just put yourself at a disadvantage when they get that extra card.
If you want to misconstrue this as "dies to removal lol" then go right ahead.
August 25, 2014 8:17 p.m.
lothshteth says... #33
I think its fine as is. These kind of cards are made all the time and they all still possess this potential to get blown out disadvantage. But if it is a serious concern just change the upkeep trigger to a precombat main phase trigger.
August 25, 2014 9:10 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #34
I think the idea is in a more casual environment this thing is allowed to live because of the advantage it gives everyone. Eventually it will be in your opponents best interest to kill it before your turn comes around but isn't that the mark of any good card. I'd be worried if I was designing a whole bunch of creatures that nobody wants to kill.
Nigeltastic says... #2
This guy doesn't do anything to help you... Everyone gets to ramp out of control, but you have to discard cards for the honor of helping everyone and it's a 0/5...
August 24, 2014 7:23 p.m.