Zur the Enchanter *f-etch* and shroud
Asked by deadmanwalking 13 years ago
So this question is actually more about the nature of enchantments than anything else, but zur was how it came to my attention, so I'll be using him as the example.
I recently decided to make a Zur the Enchanter edh deck. When I looked into what other people do with this commander, I found that the first enchantment most people fetch with zur is political-immunity. Then Steel of the Godhead , Phyrexian Arena , etc, etc. But that doesn't quite seem right to me. I was under the impression that auras had an implied targeting effect, that is, auras target regardless of whether or not the card explicitly states this. Naturally, that would mean giving Zur shroud would make it impossible to enchant him further. The huge number of people who insist on giving Zur shroud prompted me to look it up and see exactly what the rules say about auras. Here's what I found:
303.4a An Aura spell requires a target, which is restricted by its enchant ability.
I'd like a little clarification: can a creature with shroud be enchanted or not? Also, I'd like some sort of explanation beyond a simple yes or no, it would seem to me that the rules say no.
StealthMuffin says... #2
Shroud prevents it from being the target of spells or abilities... So no, you cannot "target" a creature with shroud... Universal spells like Day of Judgement will still affect it though... Also, don't confuse shroud with Hexproof, which says that the creature can't be the target of opponents spells or abilities; but this can also be bypassed with universal spells...
July 8, 2011 5:54 a.m.
Shroud stops targeting, full stop. So after Zur the Enchanter has been given shroud via Diplomatic Immunity , enchanting him further is not possible as he is no longer a legal target. If anyone is doing this, then they are making an illegal play.
As StealthMuffin said, universal spells like Day of Judgment and Wrath of God will get around this. Also, proliferate gets round it because it is choosing, not targeting. And also things like Clone and Phyrexian Metamorph will get round it due to the non-targeting. (So those two creatures are nice for getting rid of nasty stuff like Progenitus )
:)
July 8, 2011 6:13 a.m.
AegairEtapa says... #4
Err.. Guys? You're all forgetting to read Zur the Enchanter. Zur puts the enchantment into play, aura's only target when being cast, so if an aura is put into play you can attach it to something without targetting thus making it perfectly legal.
"114.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn't target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)""303.4. Some enchantments have the subtype "Aura." An Aura enters the battlefield attached to an object or player. What an Aura can be attached to is restricted by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). Other effects can limit what a permanent can be enchanted by."
July 8, 2011 9:09 a.m.
Hmmm, good point!! There's me rambling about shroud, when the card in question overrides it. So I am correct with the other points, but I stand corrected regarding Zur the Enchanter .
I was assuming it was the same as Sovereigns of Lost Alara , but clearly it is not.
Well spotted!!
July 8, 2011 9:19 a.m.
AegairEtapa says... #6
Err.. Sovereigns of Lost Alara can also attach aura's to shrouded creatures.
July 8, 2011 9:51 a.m.
Surely not... "whenever a creature you control attacks alone, you may search your library for an Aura card that could enchant that creature, etc etc.
Surely on the basis of "being able to enchant", shroud would prevent that. Zur and Sovereigns are 2 entirely different creatures with very different effects, it was the confusion with sovereigns which is why I was wrong about zur.
July 8, 2011 10:04 a.m.
GATHERER RULINGS FOR Sovereigns of Lost Alara
Any Aura card you find with Sovereigns of Lost Alara's second ability must be able to enchant the attacking creature as it currently exists. You need to check the Aura's enchant ability as well as any effects, such as protection, that would make it illegal to attach that Aura to the attacking creature. For example, if the attacking creature were an artifact creature with protection from blue, you could find an Aura with "enchant artifact," but you could not find a blue Aura.
If you choose to search your library but no applicable Aura card is left in your deck (or you choose not to find one), then nothing enters the battlefield and you simply shuffle your library.
The attacking creature is not targeted by either this ability or the Aura, so a creature with shroud can be enchanted this way.
If the attacking creature has left the battlefield by the time Sovereigns of Lost Alara's second ability resolves, you can't put an Aura onto the battlefield this way. You may still choose to search your library just to shuffle it.
GATHERER RULINGS FOR Zur the Enchanter
If you use Zur the Enchanter's triggered ability to search for an Aura, it will be put onto the battlefield attached to an appropriate permanent. It doesn't target that permanent. If no appropriate permanent exists for it to be attached to, that Aura can't be put onto the battlefield and stays in your library.
So my last comment is correct, zur gets around shroud, sovereigns does not
July 8, 2011 10:09 a.m.
AegairEtapa says... #10
Reread your gatherer rules again. And the rules.
"702.5a Enchant is a static ability, written "Enchant [object or player]." The enchant ability restricts what an Aura spell can target and what an Aura can enchant."
When you cast an aura you target something it can enchant.
Both of them are basically saying you can't enchant a creature with an aura that says enchant player etc.
July 8, 2011 10:11 a.m.
AegairEtapa says... #11
That and Sovereign can only get auras. Whilst Zur can get any enchantment, not just auras.
July 8, 2011 10:13 a.m.
I did re-read, hence spotting my mistake and correcting myself. Don't be condescending about it with: "And the rules".
How about "read post #9".
July 8, 2011 10:30 a.m.
AegairEtapa says... #13
Chill, you wasn't quite clear about admitting you were mistaken. I mean, when you say that your last comment is incorrect and Zur gets around shroud whilst Sovereign does not makes no sense.
Anyway to make it all simple for the OP:
When an aura is put into play it does not target.When an aura is cast it targets.You cannot target something with shroud.But an aura put into play can be attached to something with shroud due to there being no targetting.
July 8, 2011 10:33 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #14
I'd like to add my own take on a simple, clarified way of addressing the question:
Shroud prevents an object from being the target of something, but it doesn't prevent things from being attached to it (like Protection does). No part of the Sovereigns' or Zur's abilities target a creature, so Shroud doesn't get in the way of their functionality.
July 8, 2011 10:53 a.m.
deadmanwalking says... #15
Wow, thanks guys. So after all that, yes the official ruling for Zur is that auras he brings into play do not target, meaning he can both enchant himself whilst having shroud and he can Arrest Thrun, the Last Troll . I'll be going back through and choosing the first answer to point this out, but I also noticed something I found a bit frustrating:
AegairEtapa, your answer was good, and was the first correct answer, but in your rules quotes you quote rule 601.2c as basically the mains support for your argument, as it is what says that auras only target while being cast as spells. I looked up rule 601.2c to makes sure, and it's about spells with multiple targets. I don't know if you simple misquoted or misread the rule, but that most certainly does not help. although you were correct, you didn't actually have the rules to back it up. I'd imagine that it was just a simple mistake, but well, idk, something about it just irks me...... thanks a lot for your help, though, you were the first to give a technically correct answer :)
July 8, 2011 5:14 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #16
AegairEtapa didn't make a mistake. Rule 601.2c isn't about spells with multiple targets, it's about the part of the process of casting a spell that involves choosing appropriate targets. That's why 114.1b references it when it says the targets for an Aura spell are chosen as it's cast.
July 8, 2011 5:39 p.m.
Forgive my redundancy, if a card comes into play, and the card enchants a permanent, doesn't the card require a target to enchant, thus being a targeting effect.
Example, card a comes into play attached to a creature, card b is an enchant creature, when card b comes into play the player targets a creature, card b is then attached to creature enchanting it.
I give 2 examples of cards, card a is just for wording, like on an equipment.
Card b is how i understand how an "aura, enchant creature" works.
Also i have played since revised edition (the latter is context of my experience with the game)
February 20, 2013 9:42 p.m.
Rules:303.4f is the answer.
Zur the enchanters ability will put an aura onto a permanent, without making it a target.
deadmanwalking says... #1
Diplomatic Immunity :P
July 8, 2011 5:49 a.m.