Phyrexian Crusaeder, First Strike, & proliferate
Asked by tappedout1234 13 years ago
Hey guys, this came up at an fnm last week, and I think that the rules advisor was wrong, maybe you guys can help me out as to what's the right play.
My opponent had a Batterskull out, and I had a Phyrexian Crusader on the field along with Contagion Clasp
What I wanted to do was swing with crusader, and after "first strike" damage was dealt (leaving Batterskull with 2 counters on him) activate contagion clasp and proliferate the 2 counters on Batterskull , which would then make him a 1/1 (and therefore not kill my crusader)
The rules advisor at the fnm said I couldn't do that... was he right?
rckclimber777 says... #2
As Epochalyptik said you may only add one counter to the batterskull. It has 2 -1/-1 counters because of the first strike damage. They are still the same kind of counter and so you can only add one more.
November 3, 2011 12:23 p.m.
?? He is asking whether he could do that, he is not suggesting that proliferating would kill the germ token that the batterskull is attached to. Just asking if he CAN proliferate after first strike damage and thus save his crusader from dieing because the batterskull would be a 1/1 at that point.
Unless im the one who is missing something then yea it seems like you coulda done that.
November 3, 2011 12:27 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #4
oops you're absolutely right. For some reason I thought he would need to add 2 counter to make it a 1/1 for some reason.
Yes he could have activated his clasp between first strike and regular combat damage. It's a completely different damage step and thus both players get priority. Giving you the opportunity to use the clasp and thus save your crusader
Sorry for the mistake.
November 3, 2011 12:42 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
The only mistake you made was trying to proliferate and put two counters on a single object, which is why that was what my first post addressed. Your rules adviser should have clarified that while the timing of your action was legal, the actual action (proliferating two counters on one object) was not.
Players do receive priority in between first strike damage and normal combat damage, and may cast instants/flash spells and activate abilities.
November 3, 2011 12:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Edit - Scratch that, for some reason I believed Batterskull gave +5/+5. In this scenario you made no actual mistake, and I would approach your rules adviser with a question about the scenario the next time you see him or her.
November 3, 2011 12:54 p.m.
tappedout1234 says... #7
alright cool thanks guys! (sorry if my question wasn't clear) Just to clear things up, I wanted to proliferate on the Batterskull adding one additional counter to him (so my Phyrexian Crusader wouldn't die). The rules advisor(I don't think he was certified) knew this and still said no, so I'll ask him about it next friday.
Thanks guys!
November 3, 2011 1:18 p.m.
You can't do that, here's why:
510.2. Second, all combat damage thats been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesnt use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time its dealt. This is a change from previous rules.Example: Suntail Hawk (a 1/1 creature with flying) and Goblin Piker (a 2/1 creature) are attacking. Mogg Fanatic (a 1/1 creature with the ability Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic: Mogg Fanatic deals 1 damage to target creature or player) blocks the Goblin Piker. The defending player sacrifices Mogg Fanatic during the declare blockers step to deal 1 damage to the Suntail Hawk. The Hawk is destroyed. The Piker deals and is dealt no combat damage this turn. If the defending player instead left Mogg Fanatic on the battlefield, the Fanatic and the Piker would have dealt lethal damage to one another, but the Suntail Hawk couldnt have been dealt damage.510.3. Third, any abilities that triggered on damage being assigned or dealt go on the stack. (See rule 603, Handling Triggered Abilities.)510.4. Fourth, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.510.5. If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike (see rule 702.7) or double strike (see rule 702.4) as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike. After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that didnt have first strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike. After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step
November 3, 2011 1:35 p.m.
But the thing is that, as has already been stated, their is a... pause, if you will, after the first strike damage step. That allows all players to play applicable spells (instants) and abilities.
November 3, 2011 1:39 p.m.
It's been stated, but I want to see the rule that agrees with the statement, because it seems to me that the comprehensive rule book disagrees. Maybe I'm missing something, it's not an unusual occurrence, but I don't think so here. 510.2 seems pretty clear.
November 3, 2011 1:44 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #11
702.7b If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike or double strike (see rule 702.4) as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike. After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that didnt have first strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike. After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step.
The rule that you stated is for creatures without first strike. The above rule is for creatures that have first strike. Note that there is a Second damage step after first strike has been assigned, thus priority is passed between players allowing spells to be played before the second combat damage step.
November 3, 2011 1:47 p.m.
Right, but that's still a damage step. You're assigning damage as a turn-based action, no stack, no priority passing. I get that two damages happen separately, but it's still in the damage phase which says no spells or activated abilities. (Notice triggered abilities are not in that list).
November 3, 2011 1:52 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #13
Whenever you move on from a step, then priority is passed as noted here:
500.3. A step in which no players receive priority ends when all specified actions that take place during that step are completed. The only such steps are the untap step (see rule 502) and certain cleanup steps (see rule 514).
Since we are dealing with first strike there is an additional combat damage step and thus there is a passing of priority. The language of "step" is very clear for exactly this reason. This also means that I can cast Unsummon on the crusader to save it from dying to something bigger while still putting 2 counters on the opposing creature.
506.1. The combat phase has five steps, which proceed in order: beginning of combat, declare attackers, declare blockers, combat damage, and end of combat. The declare blockers and combat damage steps are skipped if no creatures are declared as attackers or put onto the battlefield attacking (see rule 508.5). There are two combat damage steps if any attacking or blocking creature has first strike (see rule 702.7) or double strike (see rule 702.4).
November 3, 2011 2:02 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #14
If it happened in the same damage step you would be right, but they don't they are two separate steps entirely thus resulting in a passing of priority. As I noted the only steps that you do no pass priority in are untap and cleanup. Damage step is neither.
November 3, 2011 2:05 p.m.
Awesome. I love this meat and potatoes kind of stuff.
November 3, 2011 2:22 p.m.
rckclimber777 says... #16
Yea there are so many intricacies to the game that to understand it fully would give anyone a serious edge. For instance I played against someone the other day who was running Esper but had only White black sources of mana out, though he did have ghost quarter. I was like well I can be safe from any counters. Played a spell, in response he sacked his ghost quarter and a plains picked out an island, put it on the field and then countered my spell... I was like well played.. well played lol.
November 3, 2011 2:39 p.m.
tappedout1234 says... #17
Thanks so much everyone for your input! This has been a great thread... so I guess we are in agreement that you can activate abilities between first strike and normal combat damage steps?
I guess this has other implications as well.Consider this: You have a Sunspear Shikari equipped with a Sword of War and Peace , a Puresteel Paladin , and a Brass Squire ... You could attack with Sunspear Shikari and Puresteel Paladin and, after shikari is done w/ first strike, use Brass Squire 's ability to equip it to paladin. Assuming neither is blocked, you could get in some good damage.
November 3, 2011 3:50 p.m.
In a scenario where Rafiq of the Many is on the board and you are attacking with a Sturmgeist that is equipped with a Sword of Feast and Famine with 5 cards in your hand at the start of combat, assuming there are no creatures blocking sturmgeist, and thus he deals combat damage, he will be a 5/5 creature, with +1+1 from exalted's triggered effect, +2+2 comes from the sword, and so he deals 8 first strike damage. Then, after damage is dealt, your opponent discards a card from the Sword's ability, then you may untap all of your lands, and draw a card, and- joy!-your draw turns out to be Capsize and since you know you will be able to untap again after regular combat damage is dealt, you are free to cast capsize with buyback, as many times as you have 6 to spend for it, and return that many permanents to your opponents hand, all before dealing regular combat damage, which (with the added card in your hand) is now 9/youditch/iuntap,draw to the face. Or even better, between first strike and regular combat damage being dealt, after untapping from the SoFF, cast Stroke of Genius for 5, pumping the Sturmgeist for his regular combat damage. Brutal. Works well with Umezawa's Jitte too as you can (after first strike combat damage is dealt) put counters on your Jitte, then immediately take them off to pump your dude.
Epochalyptik says... #1
When you proliferate, you only add a single counter of a kind already on that permanent or player. If you proliferate, Batterskull 's germ token will have 3 counters on it, not 4.
701.24a To proliferate means to choose any number of permanents and/or players that have a counter, then give each exactly one additional counter of a kind that permanent or player already has.
November 3, 2011 12:03 p.m.