Masterful Ninja and Ninjutsu
Asked by cmbr 6 years ago
When I return an attacking, unblocked Masterful Ninja to my hand to pay for a Ninjutsu cost (let's say for example Ninja of the Deep Hours), is the Masterful Ninja still on the battlefield attacking?
sergiodelrio says... #2
Neotrup wrong. Doesn't matter if it is in your hand, on your shoulder or whatnot as long as it is ALSO on the battlefield (for the same reason Wear // Tear is a multicolored red AND white card no matter what). The whole point of the card is that it works with ninjutsu.
August 25, 2018 4:29 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #3
cmbr it will however, not be attacking anymore, as you must Ninjutsu AFTER you have decisively declared attackers, so it will just sit on the battlefield.
August 25, 2018 4:32 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #4
Hey lets all be civil here. Civilized people don't think that "wrong" is an entire sentence.
There are no ninjutsu cards in unsets, so "the whole point" of Masterful Ninja can't be that it interacts with ninjutsu. It is a funny card that is both in hand and on the battlefield because haha ninjas. I am inclined to interpret the rules as Neotrup has. If Academy Rector dies and someone exiles it in response to the trigger, you can not then say "well I move her from exile to exile and get to search". She is already in the zone therefore she can not be moved to it. Masterful Ninja is already in your hand, so he can't be moved to it.
Having said this though, silver border cards don't have as clear cut rules as black border. You are already playing with silver border cards so your playgroup has obviously decided to house rule that silver and black border cards can be played together. If any ambiguities like this show up I would let the playgroup vote on how the card works. The person wanting to play the card should abstain from voting, but would break any ties if they happen.
If you do decided that Masterful Ninja can be used to pay ninjutsu costs, then there is nothing removing him from combat and he would still be attacking. This would allow you to as many ninjutsu costs with him as you wanted. He would also still do combat damage in the combat damage step.
August 25, 2018 9:42 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #5
Quick judgement makes excellent civilizations Gidgetimer. The fact that you read this with a negative sentiment says a lot more about you than it does about me.
Ninjutsu had been the singnature move of the handful of ninjas designed before and Mark Rosewater must have thought, sure, let's not have synergy.
Here's another example: You can legally tap a tapped with Gigadrowse. Just because "paying the cost" in this case translates to basically "do nothing", you are still able to pay it, just like you pay "" costs. All targets and choices are legal, so it should work just fine.
Good day, Sir.
August 25, 2018 10:04 a.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #6
With your Gigadrowse example you are conflating costs and effects. They are two separate things. You can target something with an effect that would change it's status to what it already is. You can not pay a cost by changing the status to what it already is. You did make me think of a better example though, so thank you for that.
You can not tap a permanent that is already tapped to pay the cost of an ability. Just like you can not tap a tapped Llanowar Elves to make mana, you can't return a Masterful Ninja that is in your hand to your hand to pay a cost.
August 25, 2018 11:10 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #7
Sorry, sergiodelrio, but Gidgetimer has it right here.
For the same reason that Platinum Emperion stops you from activating Necropotence, Masterful Ninja's effect stops you from being able to ninjutsu.
This: "Just because "paying the cost" in this case translates to basically "do nothing", you are still able to pay it" is precisely incorrect.
601.2h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can’t be paid.
August 25, 2018 11:49 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #8
This is the closest the comprehensive rules come to cover the issue of an object changing into a zone it's already in:
Rule 406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn’t change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
August 25, 2018 12:18 p.m.
Thank you all for answering my question! Very much appreciated. This interaction doesn't seem to work how I intended, so I will restrain from doing it in my casual games. But I will just in case ask Mark Rosewater what he'd say anyway.
August 25, 2018 12:27 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #10
cmbr If he answers, please take the time to share it with us!
August 25, 2018 12:31 p.m.
For what it's worth, the Unstable FAQAWASLFAQPAFTIDAWABIAJTBT (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/unstable-faqawaslfaqpaftidawabiajtbt-2017-12-06) Posted by MaRo himself has this to say:
_"What happens if I try to move Masterful Ninja from battlefield to hand or vice versa?
Masterful Ninja stays in both zones. For example, say your opponent casts Unsummon, trying to return Masterful Ninja from the battlefield to your hand. It's already in your hand, so nothing happens. Masterful Ninja stays on the battlefield. And in your hand."_
This is still talking about effects, not costs, but presumably it would apply to costs similarly. Masterful Ninja is already in hand, so you can't move it to hand to pay a cost, therefore the ninjutsu cost is unpayable. See rule 601.2h. There's still some wiggle room in interpretation, but this seems to be the most likely correct answer, and probably about as correct as you're going to get in an Un-set without MaRo answering otherwise elsewhere.
So yeah, cmbr, if MaRo responds to you, please update here!
August 25, 2018 2:35 p.m.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/177553440438/greetings-mark-i-have-an-unconstructed-question
Mark answered me and yes: Although it will be removed from combat, you can pay Ninjutsu costs with Masterful Ninja!
August 30, 2018 11:38 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #14
cmbr thanks for sharing! Now we have something official on the topic
Neotrup says... #1
Masterful Ninja cannot be returned to your hand, as it is already there. This means if it's targeted by Unsummon it will remain on the battlefield. Because of this, I believe it cannot be used to pay a ninjitsu cost, as you're not able to preform the action.
August 25, 2018 3 a.m.