Applications for Cloudshift, How to use it properly?
Asked by Lazarus 12 years ago
I know there are a lot of things you can do with Cloudshift , the most obvious application is reactivating the enter the battlefield effects of most cards, but in a more major sense here are my concerns.
1.) Can you use Cloudshift to targer your creature so it would be saved from a removal card? If it can, does this apply to "Target removals" or even "Each Creature Removals"?
2.) Can you use Cloudshift while your creature blocks an attacker thus saving it from being killed by your opponents creature? Will the opponents creature still continue attacking or would it still be blocked?
3.) Learned this from a friend, supposedly, if you Cloudshift a Fiend Hunter or an Angel of Serenity , you''ll be able to exile an additional creature with the hunter and an additional of three creatures with the angel. why is that? isn't the response effect of the cards when they leave battlefield, that they should return the cards they exiled back? why would Cloudshift make them ignore that effect?
4.) Any other ways to use Cloudshift besides the things I mentioned?
1) mass removal doesn't specify particular permanents, so becoming a different permanent wouldn't matter. <- forgot to finish my thought.
November 7, 2012 6:22 a.m.
3) Wouldn't work with Angel of Serenity though. This is because when the second ability resolves, the creatures are returned to hand. Thus the first ability (from the first trigger) will be countered because the targets are no longer there.
November 7, 2012 6:24 a.m.
Point 3: You can exile two creatures the following way. You cast [cloudshift] while the [fiend hunter]'s exile effect is on stack, the "comes back" effect will resolve first, and does nothing. After that the 2nd exile effect will be applied to the 2nd creature. Afterwards the 1st exile effect will be applied to the 1st creature, which will exile the 1st target forever.
November 7, 2012 6:29 a.m.
@Virlym
It does work with Angel of Serenity , the effect is the same, in that the leaves-the-battlefield ability does not have a legal target since there are no exiled cards.
November 7, 2012 6:51 a.m.
Oops, read over the "exiled" part in the second ability. I just read it as cards.
November 7, 2012 7:05 a.m.
GruffyBears says... #7
4) I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Thragtusk . Great to use with Cloudshift on the end of your opponent's turn. 5 life and a 3/3 body to swing with on your turn. Value!
November 7, 2012 7:49 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #9
- When something changes zones, it becomes a new object, so anything that was targeting it will lose track of it. If you Cloudshift a creature in response to it being targeted with Murder , then Murder will not have any legal targets at the time it would start to resolve, so it gets countered by the rules. Cloudshift can't save a creature from effects that don't target, like Day of Judgment or Magmaquake .
- When your creature becomes a new object from changing zones, it's not a blocking creature anymore, and it's not in combat anymore, so it can't be assigned combat damage. Note that this only works if you use Cloudshift before the damage-dealing step of combat, so the creature can't assign any damage to the attacker either. The attacker will still be considered blocked, and will only be able to assign damage to the defending player if it has trample.
- This trick works just fine. The reason is the order the triggered abilities end up going onto the stack when you do it correctly. Fiend Hunter enters the battlefield, and his first ability triggers. You respond with Cloudshift , making his second ability trigger, also making the first ability trigger again when he comes back as a new object, and those abilities go on the stack on top of the very first trigger (in the order of your choice). Being a new object is important. When the LTB trigger from the "old" Hunter resolves, it won't return anything, because the ETB trigger from the "old" Hunter hasn't exiled anything yet. When the ETB trigger from the "new" Hunter resolves, it will exile something that will be returned when the "new" Hunter leaves, and when the ETB trigger from the "old" Hunter finally resolves, it will exile something that won't be returned. The explanation for Angel of Serenity is basically the same.
- You already mentioned all the basics. Anything else that could be done is just a slight variation on one of those things.
November 7, 2012 9:37 a.m.
An additional thing I like to use Cloudshift for.
When all my creatures are tapped, my opponent is more likely to attack. When he/she does, I flicker one of my creatures, giving me a blocker.
In the same respect, if your opponent is wary of Cloudshift , all you have to do is keep one white mana open and one card in your hand. Now you just wait to see if your opponent calls your bluff.
November 7, 2012 10:08 a.m.
Another use would be to steal creatures, e.g. combining with Traitorous Instinct , Traitorous Blood , Act of Treason , Mark of Mutiny etc. you even get +1/+1 with the last one.
Also can be used when a creature with undying is about to die for the second time, Cloudshift it and it comes back without a counter, so in essence it has 4 lives. or even with Treacherous Pit-Dweller .
November 7, 2012 10:17 a.m.
Sorry, what am I saying, you don't get +1/+1 with Mark of Mutiny when it comes back. Anyway that's not the point.
November 7, 2012 10:19 a.m.
UmbrotheUmbreon says... #13
There are so many ridiculous hijinks with blink effects...
November 7, 2012 1:18 p.m.
Here's a related question...how does soulbond work in these scenarios.
Can I use a Deadeye Navigator bound with Fiend Hunter or Angel of Serenity to perma exile all their creatures?
So, I pay 2, flash the Fiend Hunter - it comes into play, but soulbinding isn't a trigger or something that goes on the stack right? So that just happens, I can rebind with the navigator instantly, and put his exile effect on the stack. Then I re-flash for 2 mana, comes back in, rebind, pick new exile, re-flash...etc until I've targeted all opponents creatures for exile and reflashed. Then let all the exiles on the stack resolve.
November 7, 2012 1:18 p.m.
702.93a Soulbond is a keyword that represents two triggered abilities.
So the stack would look like this:
TOP
Soulbond
Exile #2
Return exiled #1
BOTTOM
You let the top soulbond resolve, then interrupt that with another flicker, so the stack is now:
TOP
Exile #3
Return exiled #2
Exile #2
Return exiled #1
BOTTOM
And so on.
So even though soulbond is a triggered effect, you can still use the mana ability after the soulbond has resolved but before the ETB effect. So yes, what you've said should work, as far as I know regarding stacks resolving.
November 7, 2012 1:46 p.m.
That should have read:
You let the top soulbond resolve, then interrupt 'EXILE #2' with another flicker, so the stack is now:
November 7, 2012 1:48 p.m.
I'm pretty sure someone told me no one can respond to soulbond - which means it wouldn't use the stack. But they could obviously be wrong.
November 7, 2012 2:21 p.m.
I guess they mean you can't respond to it as in you can't respond to triggered abilities by countering it, the rules do say it's triggered after all.
November 7, 2012 2:31 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #19
What they mean is that there's no way to respond to the choice of creature to bond with before the bond is actually created. That choice is made when the triggered ability is resolving. For example, if you play an Elgaud Shieldmate , your opponent won't know what creature you're going to pair it with at the time he still has the chance to make responses while the soulbond trigger is on the stack. You choose the bond when the ability resolves, and now it's too late for your opponent to try to mess with either creature because they have hexproof now.
November 7, 2012 8:20 p.m.
jenova_death says... #20
This card has mind-fudged me today. What happens.. well, how/if would you play Cloudshift under these circumstances.
You cast Fiend Hunter on your turn, goes on the stack, 1st ability triggers, they use one of the following instances; bolt, burn, Path to Exile, 'destroy target creature'.
Q.1.Can they use bolt, burn, Path to Exile, 'destroy target creature' at that moment in time?
Q.2.What would the result(s) be?
Q.3.Under the circumstances of knowing your opponent will respond this way in regards to Q.2., is there a better way of playing Fiend Hunter and/or Cloudshift?
Q.4.Also, what would happen to Q.1, Q.2. & Q.3. if you used Path to Exile in the scenario instead of playing Cloudshift?
November 12, 2015 12:51 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #21
It's much better to start a new Rules Q&A topic than to post in a very old one. If you post in an old one then only the users who already posted in it and are still listed as "subscribed" by the system will be able to see it.
After a spell or ability (either activated or triggered) is put onto the stack, everyone will have a chance to make a response before it starts to resolve. In your questions:
- When you put the Cloudshift spell or Fiend Hunter triggered ability onto the stack, your opponent can respond with any instant or activated ability they're able to pay for
- The spell/ability used in response is now on top of the stack, so it will end up resolving first. If this means the target of your effect is now gone or otherwise illegal then your effect will be countered by the rules of the game when it tries to start resolving.
- If you think your opponent has a trick and you want your effect to resolve first then you'd have to wait for your opponent to make their play and then make yours in response to it. Because of the timing rules for spells, this is very difficult to do with a creature like Fiend Hunter, but very easy to do with an instant like Cloudshift.
- There's no real difference in the ultimate result if you're using Path to Exile instead
If you have any other questions, make a new topic in the Rules Q&A area where everyone can see it.
November 12, 2015 9:30 a.m.
jenova_death says... #22
@Rhadamnthus, fair points. I haven't touched this site in quite a while, just getting used to it again. Your answers are brilliant! :)Thanks.
Virlym says... #1
1) yes. no. It only works for target because the Cloudshift ed creature will return as a new permanent, thus the target of the other spell is no longer valid.
2) yes, It will be considered blocked because there was a blocker declared for it.
3) Play Fiend Hunter , his first ability will trigger. In response (before it resolves) Cloudshift him. He will leave the battlefield and his second ability will trigger. He will re-enter the battlefield and his first ability will trigger.
Resolve in reverse order. first ability (#2) will resolve, exiling a permanent. Second ability will resolve, returning the creature that was targeted with the first ability(#1). Then the first ability (#1) will resolve, exiling the creature. However, because the second ability for the initial ability trigger resolved, the creature from the first ability (#1) will stay exiled.
4) Use Cloudshift to flicker a creature to remove counters. Example: your Kitchen Finks died, and came back with a -1/-1 counter. Cloudshift it (probably like in example 2), it will come back without the -1/-1 counter so it can use its persist again.
November 7, 2012 6:21 a.m.