Food chain+prossh DOES NOT WORK
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 22, 2015, 11:08 p.m. by Kozelek
Ok I literally just got off the phone with Amber at the Wizards help line on this and here is how it works first food chain says "exile a creature you control: add X mana to your mana pool" that little : in there marks the end of the COST of the effect and the start of the effect itself so A must happen before B can happen if you put your commander into the command zone it never fulfills A so B can not happen same is true fore Godsend and Chrome Mox. Here is the rules if you look it up putting your commander in the command zone is a replacement effect thus no exile, no effect. However on Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares there is no : in the cost in fact it's not a cost at all it is 2 separate actions on the same spell so as it resolves you exile the card AND they may search their library/gain life THEN as the commander would be put in exile you MAY choose to put it back in the command zone but by that time path and swords are done doing what they do. Sorry just got done arguing "apples vs oranges" with a guy on a diferent guys deck comment feed and felt the need to post it for all to see
Epochalyptik says... #3
Sorry, that's incorrect.
117.11. The actions performed when paying a cost may be modified by effects. Even if they are, meaning the actions that are performed don't match the actions that are called for, the cost has still been paid.
If you exile Prossh, Skyraider of Kher to pay for Food Chain's ability's activation cost, but put Prossh, Skyraider of Kher into the command zone instead, you have still paid the cost. You'll get seven mana of any one color that you can spend only on creature spells.
January 22, 2015 11:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@PrecintSix6Six: Don't know if you saw my comment. Figured I'd alert you.
January 22, 2015 11:16 p.m.
Hickorysbane says... #7
Oh thank goodness, i was far too lazy to actually go look that up on my own. I was just gonna ignore it cause no one around me uses that.
January 22, 2015 11:19 p.m.
Hickorysbane says... #8
So actuallly...I don't really know why I cared at all...
January 22, 2015 11:19 p.m.
Well then Epochalyptik you call wizards and tell them that their game support people are getting it wrong cause I've called them 2 times now and got the se answer both times
January 23, 2015 12:32 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
I'm not here to have an argument about it. But the support team is incorrect (or two of its members are, at any rate). The rules are quite clear on how replaced costs work.
January 23, 2015 12:36 a.m.
Ok well I'll call them tomorrow AGAIN and ask about 117.11 vs whatever ruling they are using to give me the answer..... So are you saying if I Lure your commander to block my Godsend and exile it you would not be able to play your commander back out? Cause you can't have it both way ether they both work or they both don't work
January 23, 2015 12:40 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
117.11. The actions performed when paying a cost may be modified by effects. Even if they are, meaning the actions that are performed don't match the actions that are called for, the cost has still been paid.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.
614.6 merely describes how a replacement effect works. 117.11 is the important rule here, since it explains how replacement effects work with payments.
In this case, we have a replacement effect (commander returning to command zone) modifying an action (exiling a creature) performed when paying a cost (the activation cost of Food Chain's ability.
Food Chain's ability is considered activated regardless of whether the creature is exiled or not, so long as the cost is considered paid (which 117.11 states that it is).
Godsend's effect would exile the commander, but the card's owner has the option of returning it to the command zone per the format rules. If he or she does, then the commander card isn't exiled by Godsend. Godsend's third ability won't do anything to the commander because it doesn't see the commander in exile.
The situations aren't the same. One deals with a cost payment and one deals with a linked ability that looks for cards in a specific zone.
January 23, 2015 1:14 a.m.
@Kozelek Can you explain why if one works they both have to work? OR, if one doesn't work then they both don't work? They are two completely different things so I don't see how they would be linked in that way.
January 23, 2015 1:35 a.m.
abenz419 They both are being replaced with the "return to the command zone" replacement effect and as 614.6. said "if an action is replaced that action never happens"
January 23, 2015 1:40 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
And 117.11 says "Even if they are [modified] . . . the cost has still been paid."
You can't read only 614.6 and ignore 117.11. The latter makes it very clear that you can pay a cost even if the action prescribed doesn't actually occur.
January 23, 2015 1:43 a.m.
yes but I'm sure you read the rule Epoch listed right? He even gave the the appropriate rule # so you could look it up for yourself. It states that that once a cost is paid it's still considered paid even if an effect were to modify it (ex. moving your commander to the command zone instead of exile as a replacement effect).
Food Chain has a cost for its ability. The cost is exiling a creature. As long as you exile a creature it doesn't matte what happens to the creature after that because the cost is considered paid. Godsend's third ability does not have a cost. It's a static ability that is looking for cards in a specific zone. If a card isn't exiled with Godsend then it can't find that card in that zone. They are two completely different things. Do you see how that means they don't function the same?
January 23, 2015 1:51 a.m.
Ok then chew on this nugget
406.2. To exile an object is to put it in the exile zone from whatever zone its currently in. An exiled card is a card that's been put in the exile zone.
Food chain "gatherer" text.
Exile a creature you control: Add X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the exiled creature's converted mana cost plus one. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells.
Wait "an exiled card is a card that has been put in the exile zone"? Well now food chain said "add X mana to your mana pool where X is the EXILED creature's converted mana cost plus 1."
So yet again no exile NO MANA
January 23, 2015 1:53 a.m.
Both of you are not getting it if your putting it into the command zone ITS NOT EXILED thus your not exiling it at all
January 23, 2015 1:56 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
You're conflating costs with effects. They're not the same.
A cost does not depend on anything external happening. Either you activate the ability and pay its cost or you don't. There's no middle ground. Incomplete/partial payments are not allowed. However, 117.11 states that replacement effects that modify how one of the payment actions is taken do not change the fact that the cost was paid.
117.11 creates a condition that allows costs to be considered paid even if a replacement effect changed how or if one of the payment actions could be performed as prescribed. Triggered abilities and linked abilities, which have no such condition, don't get to trigger or function if the event on which they depend doesn't happen.
Think of it this way: the game cares whether you began or attempted the action that the cost prescribes. It doesn't care about replacement effects that change whether the action was executed as prescribed.
Now, nobody here is denying that Prossh, Skyraider of Kher is not exiled. What you're missing, Kozelek, is that the game doesn't care whether Prossh, Skyraider of Kher gets exiled or not.
January 23, 2015 2:16 a.m.
When you pay for a cost you can still modify the cost and therefore have it not actually happen. Therefore when you pay for food chain you have every intention of exiting your commander - you are going to 'put it in the exile zone'. Just because he never actually makes it there is irrelevant - you still had him going there for a second. Does that make sense? The cost WAS going to be paid, it just got superceded.
January 23, 2015 2:23 a.m.
When you pay for a cost you can still modify the cost and therefore have it not actually happen. Therefore when you pay for food chain you have every intention of exiting your commander - you are going to 'put it in the exile zone'. Just because he never actually makes it there is irrelevant - you still had him going there for a second. Does that make sense? The cost WAS going to be paid, it just got superceded.
January 23, 2015 2:23 a.m.
Hmmm the game mite not but food chain does, "an exiled card IS A CARD THAT HAS BEEN PUT IN THE EXILE ZONE"+"Equal to the EXILED CREATURES Mana cost plus 1" I can see you don't care what I say your going to say I'm wrong so YOU CALL 1(800) 324 6496 tomorrow 7am-7pm pst and argue with them I'm done talking to you. Good night sir.
January 23, 2015 2:27 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #24
My understanding is that once the cost is paid, it does not matter where the card goes. So you exile Prosh with Food Chain, and you place prosh in the command zone. Although the effect that has happened is not the effect that Food Chain calls for, the cost is considered paid per 117.11
614.6 has to do with replacement effects. it is for things like the interaction between Voice of Resurgence and Pillar of Flame. pillar exiles as a replacement effect, meaning if voice would die, it gets exiled instead and you do not get the death trigger. So the "if an action is replaced" clause is meant to explain that because voice dying is replaced by voice being exiled, the death never happens.
That being said, Prosh can be exiled, and the exile can be modified to being placed in the command zone.
Food Chain's wording is to specify that you are adding mana based on the card that paid the cost. it is not worded that way to specify that a card has to remain in/actually go to exile for the ability to resolve.
January 23, 2015 2:28 a.m.
Here's the problem as I see it Epochalyptik and CommanderOfBolas:
What Kozelek is arguing is that an exile cost is not paid until that object goes into the exile zone. Therefore a creature traveling to the exile zone does not yet fulfil the criteria UNTIL it actually gets there. Given that the replacement effect stops it from going to the exile zone you never paid the cost. In short: can you explain why an exile cost is paid when something is traveling to exile instead of when it actually gets there?
January 23, 2015 2:34 a.m.
SimicPower says... #27
Food Chain says exiled creature, while Godsend says exiled card. There is a difference. Food Chain means the creature you used to pay the ability, not the one currently in exile. For example, if you Food Chain a land that becomes a creature, you still get a mana because you did exile a creature. There is not a creature in exile, it is a land card, but a creature was still exiled and you get the mana. Godsend says the word card instead of creature. If Godsend exiles a clone copying a creature, it will prevent Clone from being cast, not the creature because in exile, clone becomes a Clone card again and it is not whatever it was copying.
January 23, 2015 2:37 a.m.
SimicPower says... #28
The main difference in wording is "exiled creature" vs "card exiled with Godsend"
January 23, 2015 2:38 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
@Kozelek: This is the internet equivalent of sticking your thumbs in your ears and yelling "I'm not listening."
It's true whether you accept it or not. I keep telling you you're wrong because you're not presenting any legitimate evidence to the contrary.
As for post 2:2, Food Chain's ability doesn't look for a card in exile. It refers back to the creature that was supposed to have been exiled, regardless of whether it was exiled or not.
This is fundamentally different from something like a linked ability (see Godsend). Godsend's second ability exiles a creature. The third ability looks for cards in exile that were put there by the second ability. If no card in exile exists with a link to that second ability, the third ability will obviously not find any cards on which to base its effect. It's a separate ability that checks a defined zone for cards put there by a defined effect.
Food Chain's one ability has a cost and then an effect that is based on the cost. It's not a second, separate ability that looks in a defined zone for a specific card.
@ChiefBell: I understand that that's the misconception, but I can't think of a way to explain other than how I already have (or that 117.11 already does).
January 23, 2015 2:39 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #30
117.11 is a ruling that essentially says you can start by paying the cost, but if something changes the way the cost is paid (i.e. putting a creature into the command zone instead of exile), the cost is still considered paid. even though the cost is exiling a creature, and no creature was technically exiled, the cost is still considered to be paid, which allows you to add the mana to your mana pool. the ruling about what an exiled card is doesn't matter because exiling is the cost, the cost is being modified, and 117.11 states that the modification doesn't change the fact that a cost is paid. I hope this all makes sense.
January 23, 2015 2:40 a.m.
SimicPower says... #31
Kozelek: How about we ask Matt Tabak on his blog. As the rules manager, he will probably more accurate than a customer service person at wizards.
January 23, 2015 2:40 a.m.
SimicPower if you want to thats fine with me but I have no idea what a blog is or how to use one I'll let you ask I've given my case no one but wizards GAME SUPORT (not customer service) seem to agree with me
January 23, 2015 2:48 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #34
If you were anything to them like you were with the people here, I find it likely they told whatever would get you off of their lines. No offence intended though I fully accept that some will be taken and for that I apologize but it's the simple truth.
January 23, 2015 2:52 a.m.
Ok I think yall are miss reading food chain it does not say "add X mana to your mana pool equal to that creatures mana cost" it says "the exiled creatures mana cost" meaning the creature must go to the exile zone in order to be considered exiled also I've given 2 diferent rules 406.2 "a card is considered exiled if it is put into the exile zone" and "614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored " that suport my case your only giving one rule 117.11. "The actions performed when paying a cost may be modified by effects. Even if they are, meaning the actions that are performed don't match the actions that are called for, the cost has still been paid" and ignoring what I said I'm not saying your not paying the cost im saying Food chain checks for the creature cards casting cost once the creature is in the exile zone. I'm not seeing how that is not "Legitimate evidence" and VampireArmy I'm sorry if I came off as belligerant but can get quite admit about things when people start telling me I'm wrong without evan considering my evidence and not providing "legitimate evidence" of their own, but whatever
January 23, 2015 4:30 a.m.
well, the thing is I'm sure plenty of people have used this combo on mtgo, so someone at wizards, and by someone I mean whoever determines the rules for mtgo, clearly thinks that the combo can be done so ...
January 23, 2015 7:33 a.m.
He has responded to the Blog...
Question: "Settle a dispute: If you exile your commander with food chain and chose to place it in the command zone, do you still get mana from food chain?simicpower"
Answer: "You do. You paid the cost to activate the ability, even if a replacement effect changed what actually happened."
January 23, 2015 7:58 a.m.
On a side note...
Food Chain + Torrent Elemental ... unlimited mana! Sweet!!
January 23, 2015 8:09 a.m.
oh... never mind. Food chain mana can only be used to "CAST" creature spells... :(
January 23, 2015 8:13 a.m.
Rayenous the only card (in my book) that works here is Misthollow Griffin and as for the "blog" response I'm still not convinced but IF it does work that way then they ether need to reword the erata for food chain or rule 406.2. cause it can't be called an exiled creature till it hits the exile zone as it reads now so there is a hole in the rules that I will continue to argue (just like scion of the ur-dragons molten-skittles combo)
January 23, 2015 8:45 a.m.
No that still works too. You clearly don't understand magic in a variety of ways. Scion and molten steel is easy to explain.
Basically replacement effects can modify the way things happen so the creature doesn't have to go to exile to count as being exiled.
January 23, 2015 8:50 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #42
We get an answer from the guy in charge of MTG's rules.
We get back an "I'm still not convinced but IF it does work that way . . ."
I don't think there's much else to do here, gentlemen.
January 23, 2015 9:10 a.m.
Kozelek ~ Epochalyptik is, as usual, correct about the ruling.
Where I think the confusion lies is this: sending something to exile (such as the cost of Food Chain) is not the same as something BEING in exile for an actual ability (like with Godsend).
Food Chain's COST only cares that something was INITIATED being sent to exile. It doesn't care, cost wise, if it never WENT to exile.
The reason Godsend won't work with commanders is because the second ability actually CHECKS for things exiled BY Godsend. Which a redirected commander doesn't qualify as because it didn't ever reach exile.
Costs don't check back on themselves like that. That's why rule 117.11 makes the interaction between Food Chain and Prossh, Skyraider of Kher possible.
January 23, 2015 9:11 a.m.
It matters not what you believe the meaning of the English wording "should" be.What matters is what the rules say and how the card interactions work.
Here's another example...
Ordeal of Thassa
If I have 3x of them, on different creatures...
I attack with one of those creatures, it gets a third +1/+1 counter...
I sacrifice the Ordeal of Thassa that is on that creature...
...now...
Do I draw 2 cards, or 6?
After all each of the 3 Ordeal of Thassa state "When you sacrifice Ordeal of Thassa, draw two cards.", so they should all trigger, shouldn't they?
No, because the wording on the card has an "intended purpose" and thus should/could be read as "When you sacrifice ~this permanent~, draw two cards."
The same way that a card which refers to itself by name ONLY means ~this permanent~, Food Chain's "the exiled creature's converted mana cost" should/could be read as "~that permanent's~ converted mana cost". (the wording is intended to check the CMC, not the state of the permanent or it's current location)
... this works for animated land (wouldn't be a 'creature' after it is exiled), and tokens (wouldn't be in exile when the ability resolves)... you still get mana (typically just 1) for Exiling those.
In the case of a Commander, it doesn't care where the Commander went, only that it was used to pay the activation cost, and what the CMC of the permanent was. - It would even work if you somehow animated one of the Planeswalker Commanders, Exiled it, and put it into the Command Zone instead of the Exile zone.
January 23, 2015 9:12 a.m.
Well it looks like (for now) I have to agree that Matt whoever he is has agreed with yall but I still say that the rules or the card wording needs to be changed
January 23, 2015 9:18 a.m.
OK. Now you need to go figure out why scion works with skittles and molten.
January 23, 2015 9:22 a.m.
@Kozelek.
If you read my post fully, you should be able to understand why the cards wording does not need to be changed.
January 23, 2015 9:23 a.m.
Actually your post inforces my point that it's confusing and needs to be changed
January 23, 2015 9:34 a.m.
In that case, 1000's of Magic Cards would have to be reworded... every card that references itself... every card that has an effect which can vary depending on the cost... every card that checks the state or location of another permanent or card.
...or... OR!!!
Players can simply understand that there are rules which govern how cards like this work, and play within those rules.
January 23, 2015 9:46 a.m.
Kozelek - Matt Tabak is the Rules Manager for MtG. Aka, he's the guy who writes the rules for each new set and erratas the Comprehensive Rules for each new set release. If there is a higher authority in Magic rules, I haven't found them.
Osang says... #2
Yea, it's the same with Birthing Pod when it was still legal. People still attempted to Lightning Bolt a creature sacrificed to pod even if it's not a legal target anymore. It's more RTFC than anything, really.
January 22, 2015 11:12 p.m.