Not to mention that Kess can also help with mana or disruption as well.

One point of curiousity. If I flicker Kess can I flashback again? It seems to read like I'd be able to but I should double check. I.E. cast Kess, flashback Tide, cast Essence Flux, flicker Kess, flashback Flux, flicker Kess, then have another flashback ready?

Kess requires you to actually draw the big payout spell in order to flashback it, if you keep a hand of only vintage rocks you're up shits creek while Jeleva gets to be in a great position if that happens. Flashbacking things like wheels, Yawgwins and Ad Nauseams only becomes relevant mid to lategame while getting Jeleva to stick turn 2 or 3 is amazing as long as your opponents are playing decks with good Jeleva hits.

Both have their merits and there are metas and games where Kess is better, but especially in storm mirrors "mini yawgwins" slower than seeing 16 cards and casting one for free.

Also, Jeleva being a placeholder commander is a joke and a meme, anyone who unironically believes that should try resolving her.

The whole placeholder thing is an idea that has to be dropped. The commander is a really important part of the deck. If the commander was not really a large factor in deck power, then we'd have Oloro Doomsday considered to be virtually as powerful as Zur. Or another random Grixis commander instead of Jeleva.

But that's not at all what happens in game. Jeleva is a solid gameplan and gets exponentially better when other players are on storm or fast combo. Kess is very solid as well, we will likely see her spearhead a great storm list. Jeleva digs, which when life sucks is really stupid good. Kess is very consistent provided you aren't stripped of playables. Kess has more easy mode plays and consistent storm lines, and Jeleva is what you want when you have been burned hard. Jeleva is also significantly better into the storm mirror.

One shouldn't replace another. They will both be good. But saying Jeleva is a placeholder is not at all what Jeleva does for the deck. Slamming Jeleva is a good play.

Our new girl Kess is bae. Jellybean is still a quality girl.

Jeleva has always been a placeholder. She was the right colors for storm, so she was used. It's always been that way. You don't need her outside of the colors she grants in the deck she's in. Literally any general with the specific colors would do the trick, heck if we had Marsil instead of Jeleva back then, we would use him! The reason she was chosen was because she could actually be utility via her ability but frankly the ability is bad overall because it's mill 4 to everyone including yourself. I mean you could screw yourself over just by casting your own general people... Now Kess on the other hand actually has storm synergy and better stats for the same CMC. This is a straight swap imo. The ability to have your graveyard as your hand is very interesting. Jeleva unfortunately should be relegated to the tier she actually fits into, IE Tier 2.5-3, given a pat on the back and never seen again in tier 1. >:|

My point is that Kess becomes live later than Jeleva does. At some point Kess becomes good but if the play is turn 3 or 4 commander Jeleva is a lot stronger. Turn 3 commander into not having anything good in your bin isn't really a "worst case scenario" since grixis quite often has to pretend to be the control player or be the "second one to go off", so keeping a hand of lands, mediocre ramp and a couple of counters is correct, especially against decks that goldfish faster than you. A hand of 3 lands, Swan Song, Counterspell, Talisman of Dominance and a Candelabra is imo a keep against not everything but a lot of stuff, since you have good interaction and enough land drops to go late game if you don't draw or your commander doesn't get you anything good. If you don't need to spend Song early your commander comes down turn 4 with Song up and that really hasn't left any time for you to fuel your graveyard while Jeleva just comes and exiles 16 cards and plays the offensive role while playing defense. Yeah yeah this hand fully supports my point of view but in my experience hands and scenarios like that happen a lot and this is what I mean with Jeleva being more live early game.

Also, my Jeleva list plays a pathetic 6 cantrips and it reasonably could add 1, maybe 2 cantrips if I really wanted more and that'd mean I'd be playing such gems as Sleight of Hand, Opt and Serum Visions. Modern storm gets to play 8 and Legacy ANT plays 12+, so you can't really rely on cantrips scupting your hand. Maybe you could jam Thought Scour and Mental Note in Kess without feeling terrible, but those cards are dead in games where you end up not relying on your commander which is also the scenario a decent amount of the time.

I know my opinion means basically nothing since im not a storm player, nor a grixis player, but why not have both in tier 1 for a while, and playtest as we go until we decide maybe one doesnt belong? Personally i think both need to be in tier 1, jeleva for a quicker storm off while using opponents decks against them, and our new girl Kess for more of a... not quite sure what id call it. Its not quite storm in my head, its more like a combination of storm and how we abuse sliver queen. A capsize lock wouldnt work as well with jeleva as with Kess, so maybe kess is basically a tasigur + jeleva deck mix? just my thoughts on the matter, feel free to agree/disagree

n0bunga the reason for placeholders (with jeleva being the only real one, kek) is because grixis storm isn't a card you can put on this list. she was the most relevant storm general in grixis so she was used to head the deck. Oloro wouldn't be a placeholder for esper D-day, because we HAVE an esper D-day commander, zur. The idea of placeholder only comes into play if we have an archetype with no better commander, otherwise they are put where the general deserves to be.

So what exactly about Kess makes her less of a placeholder than Jeleva? My point in saying that is to point out that the two simply do different things. Jeleva is great at tables where you can reliably steal spells that matter and contribute to your gameplan. Kess is great at tables where your against stax or more midrangey, creature-based decks.

But in the end, tier lists are pretty much useless, so arguing over which deserves to be in Tier 1 is futile. Player skill plays into winning games much more than deck strength at pods filled with highly powered decks (this is assuming a relatively close power level of decks over the course of many games).

All commanders are placeholder commanders until WotC prints a 1 generic mana 1/1 with "when ~ enters the battlefield you win the game". Jeleva is an amazing storm commander and even if Kess ends up being better more often Jeleva still isn't more of a placeholder commander than Zur, Tazri or Yidris. I'm seriously not getting where all of you are coming from with this placeholder meme.

Ive said this before, but Jelly has a much worse reputation than she should on this decklist. Her value is tied directly to the quality of decks at your table. In casual circles Jelly is super inconsistent and somewhat terrible. In compertive games, most decks will give her free gas and free gas is incredible for storm. Calling her a placeholder is not accurate. It was a fallicy that was simply repeated alot. I love Kess and am super excited to see what she can do. However, spoiler season is not often the time for rational thought about new cards. I (for instance) said thrasios made Tasigur completely obsolete. Tasigur is still around and better than Thras for control/combo. Thras merely took the rest of his pie. Kess will likely expand grixis archetypes and take a good proportion of Jellybeans pie, but she will not simply replace her.

How exactly is jeleva faster if her role makes it where u win when she attacks, and kess wins the turn she hits the field. Kess is a copy of any spell in your deck and can have flicker pieces in the storm to do it repeatedly.

So I think a big thing that Jeleva does which Kess doesn't is actually get you somewhere from nothing.

The whole idea that "I just exile 3 lands and some creatures" is a worst case scenario which is an unfair assessment. Similar to Kess there will be synergistic scenarios and those which are awful.

The deck does not need either Jeleva or Kess to function well. In fact, I think this is likely the best reason to play Jeleva, as when the deck can't do anything any more, Jeleva seeing 16 cards is really darn strong. Kess also only nets you 1 card per turn too. It's even better when Jellybean exiles an opponent's Doomsday.

The Jeleva placeholder argument is not a reason to immediately switch to Kess because it assumes Jeleva was a placeholder in the first place. You generally want to play the best general for a deck, so by some of the logic here there are no placeholders since you are playing the best general for your deck. Like it was said, no one actually plays Oloro DD. No one plays Mishra storm either for Grixis. The argument that Jeleva is fodder because she isn't somehow the best general for Grixis storm is pointless to use.

Instead, evaluate what they do by card quality. You are using a specific general for a reason.

Jeleva Pros:

1. Casts for free
2. Steals from opponents
3. Highest potential for complete turnarounds and plays from horrible board states
4. Excellent early game play to bait out a turn later Naus or steal other storm players' cards
5. Vampire
6. Jellybean
7. High raw card advantage

Kess Pros:

1. High synergy with current cards in the list
2. Lets you play a longer, grindier game by allowing for more hand sculpting
3. 3/4
4. Decent value play on her own
5. Floating Wizard Girl
6. Intuition

Jeleva Cons:

1. Blind searching/digging
2. Requires combat
3. Less synergy with storm lists

Kess Cons:

1. Requires you to actually have something to add resilience, poor at coming back from nothing
2. Softer to graveyard hate
3. Less of an early game aggressive presence
4. Weaker into the storm mirror

I think this for the most part covers pros and cons of each commander. To be honest, they will both be terrifying combo generals. Jeleva always has been and always will. Kess will easily earn her place as a tier 1 Grixis storm/combo commander. But really though I want to get people off the mentality that the commander doesn't matter or something. It's an important part of the strategy.

Kess does not win the turn you cast her unless your packing like 7-10 mana. Kess maybe replays a cantrip or topdeck tutor the turn you cast her. Both try to win the following turn.

Sleepy has the right of it. Most 5 color generals are unplayable because if your general does not advance your gameplan 5 colors of card options still makes it worse than a deck that gets something valuable out of the command zone. That whole all 5 color generals are tier 1 nonsense is way outdated.

n0bunga rip, meant that for AlwaysSleepy. Lilbrudder so you are saying kess will do most of what jeleva did, and more, while being a more consistent card overall. i'm pretty sure that's grounds for superiority. no one is saying that kess will obsolete jeleva. but if you would look at tasigur, you would notice he is weaker than thras if only due to a lower cmc with less inputs and being a COLORLESS sink, as well as allowing for a partner to thin the deck by 1. jeleva has some serious downsides needing to stick needing to attack, the chance of exiling a card you really need without a way to reuse it and more easily removed because of worse stats. jeleva just inst as good as kess in general, you can debate if she needs to be dropped to reflect this, but kess really is a stronger card to have in the command zone.

I don't see how Kess is more consistent than Jeleva; they're literally jammed in the same shell. Kess does more late and when you are in a stax heavy pod; Jeleva does more early in getting free spells.

@n0bunga:

Me: But in the end, tier lists are pretty much useless, so arguing over which deserves to be in Tier 1 is futile. Player skill plays into winning games much more than deck strength at pods filled with highly powered decks (this is assuming a relatively close power level of decks over the course of many games).

You: "Player skill plays into winning games"

If everyone really maintained this stance, why have Tiered decks at all?

Me: ... That's exactly what I just said.

That is not what I said. At this point I have said all I will on the subject. I am excited to play against and possibly brew kess

I mean if you look at it that way I guess Kess too is just a placeholder commander then. Next year WotC might print a 2 mana grixis commander that gives all your spells storm. The probability of Jeleva hitting a tutor, a wheel or something other good is really high in a competitive table with other spellslinger decks. If Jeleva instead read "When ~ attacks, search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library" (which she commonly enough pretty much says) would she still be placeholder?

Lilbrudder that is essentially what you said. "In casual circles Jelly is super inconsistent and somewhat terrible. In compertive games, most decks will give her free gas and free gas is incredible for storm." that is called inconsistency. "Kess will likely expand grixis archetypes and take a good proportion of Jellybeans pie, but she will not simply replace her." that literally translates into ". . . kess will do most of what jeleva did, and more. . .". anyway, when people start brewing kess more heavily we can evaluate both better with less hype.

Not at all. Just because a general is only good in competitive games does not make it "inconsistent." Why would you play grixis storm in a casual environment? It would be stupid. Kess is better (Overall) but she is not necessarily a speed general. You dont just plop a general in an existing archetype and say "Mission accomplished...Tier 1 Baby!" To suggest that Rev needs to replace his general is insulting, especially since there is no way any of us are going to build a better deck in a week with our killer Kess brew. Archetypes take months to years to get to the level of degenerancy that Rev has developed. It is the best deck in the color scheme by a fair margin. Nothing is remotely close (yet). Let us please cut the hype train bullshit a fair bit.

Note how I stated with similar power levels. This means that in the higher tiers, it's kind of irrelevant. And everything else is casual where it's also irrelevant.

Lilbrudder it isnt just the competitive vs uncompetitive things, some of the higher tiered decks literally dont have a density of cards with enough value/the abilty for jeleva (to want) to hit. also, i never said for rev to replace his general, and even if i did, it wouldnt be "insulting". im mainly saying that kess is better overall (glad you agree), and we can now evaluate jeleva outside of the guise of "happens to be the best current storm commander".

Very few good decks lack relevant targets actually. Blood pod, which is still not represented, and maybe like 1 variant of Thrasios. Even those decks run the obligatory black tutor package. So playgroup makes a huge difference here.

Btw @Everyone

Prossh is not tier 1

Yidris is not tier 1

Razaketh is not tier 1.5

Scion is not tier 1.5

Brago and GAAIV are not tier 1.5

Animar is not tier 1.5

Karador is not tier 1.5

Tymna IS tier 1.

Tymna herself does deserve at least tier 1.5, she is a very good toolbox general. The blood pod tymna tana deck itself is probably tier 1 and competing with teferi for the best stax deck. I will comment on lilbrudder's downgrade suggestions later.

Ok, so I see (with what Lilbrudder said) that there has been some time since we updated the higher-tier commanders. I agree on some of the placements he said, and some changes will be done.

• Tymna the Weaverhas some much decks available, with so many different strategies, pairing with Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tana, the Bloodsower for example. I think tier 1 is safe for her...?

• Tana, the Bloodsower should be moved at least to tier 2, because of the BloodPod deck she helms.

• Prossh, Skyraider of Kher probably can be dropped to tier 1.5

• Yidris, Maelstrom Wielderis really strong storm commander, but if we have arguments for it, maybe should be dropped to tier 1.5 I guess, with the rise of BloodPod there are more decks that can block and prevent us from getting to cascade.

• Razaketh, the Foulbloodedmaybe I am biased (because I like it a lot), but I can see it staying tier 1.5, there are so many lines to victory available as soon as he comes into play, being either storm, Paradox Engine, artifact storm (with Shimmer Myr), Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, the commander itself... The idea is not to rush Ad Nauseam like Sidisi does, it is different. sonnet666 has a pretty good list, and I am currently testing and trying to improve on it even more, to reduce CMC for better Ad Nauseamin case we go with this plan and to add other options to help having more ways to victory while staying a compact and CMC-lite deck.

For the other commanders mentionned, I can't really know, I would need other advices, because I have never faced them really much and I never looked at playing them that much neither.

Dralnu is easily Tier 2, if not higher, as well (definitely better than Atraxa), if we're proposing shifts. Atraxa is strong in 75% or less metas but horrible in comp metas.