What is the priority order of Patriarch's Bidding in a multi-player game?
Asked by vic 3 years ago
If I play a card like Patriarch's Bidding in a multi-player game, then several players might have creatures with ETB effects (which may affect each other's creatures. Example: Nekrataal), and I'm trying to sort out how that works.
Let's say there are 3 of us, with me as A, to my left as B, and to my right as C. What is the order of creatures entering the battlefield?
Rhadamanthus Okay, so how about something like Essence Warden? If it technically comes in at the same time as the others, does its controller get to gain the life from everybody's creatures coming in?
September 23, 2020 12:30 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #3
vic: Essence Warden would work in that scenario. basically any time a creature etb's, all etb effects are checked, even if the creature with the etb entered simultaneously. that's why in modern i can play a Collected Company, hit 2 Lavabelly Sliver, and then deal 4 damage and gain 4 life.
September 23, 2020 12:41 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 I'm a little embarrassed to say I don't understand why you can pull off 4 & 4 instead of 2 & 2 with that.
September 24, 2020 6:49 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
vic: Because of how Lavabelly Sliver works, both of them will have two instances of the "when this creature enters the battlefield" ability when they enter the battlefield. That means each of them will trigger twice for itself for a total of 4 triggers.
September 24, 2020 9:04 a.m.
Rhadamanthus but each one only gives the ability to itself. And each one hits the battlefield once. They don't affect or trigger off one another like most slivers. I'm not seeing how you're getting that.
September 24, 2020 9:35 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
They don't just affect themselves. "Sliver creatures you control gain..." means it gives the ability to all of your slivers, including itself, so in this example each Lavabelly Sliver gives the ability to itself and to the other one. They both end up with two separate instances of the triggered "When this creature enters the battlefield..." ability.
September 24, 2020 10:15 a.m.
Rhadamanthus well see, the quote's just the thing. It makes it so that each other sliver enters as a creature that says "When THIS creature etb, IT deals 1 damage..."
Let's say you have one or both (should be same result) Lavabelly Slivers on the board and then you play a Woodland Changeling. How much damage does is dealt?
I count just 1 (from the changeling- nothing else).
September 24, 2020 10:50 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #9
Lavabelly Sliver stacks with itself. imagine all of that text being printed on the card twice.
so if i have 2 Lavabelly Sliver and play another sliver, thats 2 damage and 2 life because the new sliver would have 2 instances of the same etb, that each trigger separately.
exact same reason that if i have 2 Predatory Sliver on the field, all slivers get +2/+2.
September 24, 2020 12:01 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
vic: If there is one Lavabelly Sliver on the battlefield then Woodland Changeling's abilities will be
- Changeling
- When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life
If there are two Lavabelly Slivers on the battlefield then Woodland Changeling's abilities will be
- Changeling
- When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life
- When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life
Does that make more sense? Because it affects itself, a single Lavabelly Sliver on the battlefield will have:
- Sliver creatures you control have "When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life"
- When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life
And what we were trying to express earlier is that if two Lavabelly Slivers enter the battlefield at the same time, they'll both have:
- Sliver creatures you control have "When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life"
- When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life
- When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life
That's why you get two triggers from each of them.
September 24, 2020 12:57 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 and Rhadamanthus Conceptually, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's what the wording in the quotes says. I don't see anything in the wording that makes it stack with itself. I say it's just redundant, like something having Flying twice (plus the text in quotes twice) from two Pulmonic Slivers.
The Predatory Sliver thing makes perfect sense, because it is each of the two Predatory Slivers (PS) that grants a +1/+1. PS #1 gives the boost. Also PS #2 gives the boost. So two boosts. No problem.
But our friend Lavabelly says that the new sliver coming in gives ITSELF a triggered effect when it comes in. It doesn't come in twice, so the effect happens once (no stacking).
Let's say there are no Lavabellies on the board. No creatures at all, let's say. There is a new Sliver card that I'll call Drain Sliver that reads "When this creature enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life". I have two Drain Slivers in my graveyard and I play that Patriarch's Bidding.
How much damage is dealt & gained? I say it's 2. Right?
September 27, 2020 4:01 a.m.
What you guys are describing would be as if the Lavabelly Sliver's text read as follows:
"Whenever this creature or another sliver enters the battlefield under your control, Lavabelly Sliver deals 1 damage to target player or planeswalker and you gain 1 life."
THAT would deal the 4 damage if two of them hit your board at once. Does that make sense?
September 27, 2020 4:18 a.m.
Abilities are only redundant if the ability specifically says they are. Take Flying--the ability you cited--Rule 702.9c specifically states: "Multiple instances of flying on the same creature are redundant."
That is why flying is redundant; not because it seems like it should be redundant, but because the Rules specifically state that it is redundant.
There is no such restriction on Lavabelly Sliver's ability. Without a specific rule establishing redundancy, the ability is not redundant; therefore each Lavabelly Sliver will add a new instance of the same ability, which is exactly what was described above. Each instance will trigger separately, so each will provide a separate resolution (with each resolution being 1 damage and 1 life).
September 27, 2020 4:53 a.m. Edited.
To provide a more specific rules citation, Dormant Sliver has a different effect on resolution, but the same trigger - it thus follows the exact same rules.
The Gatherer Rulings in Dormant Sliver - Wizards’ official way of providing guidance on cards, specifically says that multiple Dormant Sliver abilities are “cumulative”.
That clarification from Wizards should put any concerns you have to rest.
September 27, 2020 5:32 a.m.
Caerwyn okay, that works for me. The Dormant Sliver thing makes it clear. Thanks. Though I don't think Redundant always necessarily needs to be stated in the rules. Flying would unavoidably be redundant even if the rules didn't say it.
Well...that was some geeky fun, everybody! I guess.
September 27, 2020 7:28 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #16
2 instances of the same keyword don't do anything because they operate simultaneously. if a permanent gains the same ability twice, the permanent is treated as though it had that text printed twice. in the case of a keyword, this doesn't mean anything, but triggered abilities are separate. they trigger and resolve separately.
think of it as similar to Common Bond. each line of text is exactly the same, yet they happen independently of each other.
also keep in mind that i've been using Lavabelly Sliver in my fnm deck ever since its been released. i've had judges called multiple times, and it definitely stacks, which is why i also have Phantasmal Image in the deck.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
If the turn order is A-B-C and it's currently A's turn, then C's triggers will end up on the top of the stack, with B's triggers below them and A's triggers below those.
Technically all the creatures enter simultaneously, and all their abilities trigger at the same time. If multiple triggered abilities are trying to go onto the stack at the same time, the active player puts the triggers they control onto the stack in the order of their choice, then the next player in turn order puts their triggers onto the stack on top of those, and so on around the table.
Note that because the creatures enter at the same time, any triggered abilities that target another creature can target any of the ones that came back. Remember that destroying a creature before its triggered ability resolves won't stop its trigger from resolving (for example, if Nekrataal targets Staunch Defenders and Nekrataal's trigger resolves first, the Defenders' controller will still gain 4 life when its trigger resolves).
September 22, 2020 4:51 p.m.