Torbran and Inquisitor's Flail - Total damage?
Asked by Agrothorn 4 years ago
Hi!!
I attack with a 1/1 Spark Mage equipped with Inquisitor's Flail . I also control Torbran, Thane of Red Fell , who is not attacking.
Opponent has a tapped Llanowar Elves .
Spark Mage is unblocked and when it deals damage to opponent, I accept to have it's ability to trigger to deal 1 damage to their Llanowar Elves .
Question: How much damage will the Spark Mage deal to A) My opponent B) My opponent's Llanowar Elves .
Please show math
I am hoping I get to chose the order and can say... the sum of 1 (base attack) plus 2 via Torbran, Thane of Red Fell is 3, then it will be doubled by the Inquisitor's Flail for a total of 6 to the opponent.
Then, the Spark Mage ability will trigger for 1 plus the 2 via Torbran, Thane of Red Fell is 3 to the Llanowar Elves .
What I am confused with is the ruling: If another effect modifies how much damage your red source would deal, including preventing some of it, the player being dealt damage or the controller of the permanent being dealt damage chooses an order in which to apply those effects. If all of the damage is prevented, Torbran’s effect no longer applies.
Seems backwards since I am in on the attack and assigning the "normal" damage. Or is it I assign damage, then damage modification occurs and it is up to the defending player to select the order in which those modifications will hit the stack? (or do they not even hit the stack?)
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #2
Your opponent gets to choose whether they take 4 or 6 damage. Llanowar Elves will take 3 damage.
The abilities on Inquisitor's Flail and Torbran, Thane of Red Fell are a special type of ability called a "replacement effect" (the word "instead" in an ability always means it's a replacement effect). Replacement effects don't use the stack, they just modify an event as it happens.
The key thing to know is that if more than one replacement effect is trying to modify how an event will affect a player or object, then the affected player or controller of the affected object decides which one to apply first. That's what the ruling you found is talking about. In your example, both Torbran and the Flail are trying to modify the combat damage that would be dealt to your opponent. Your opponent is the affected player here, so they can choose to either apply Torbran's effect first and take (1+2)x2=6 damage, or apply the Flail effect first and take 1x2+2=4 damage.
September 25, 2019 12:01 a.m. Edited.
I guess I was too busy to read the rules for replacement effects than read the gatherer info for Torbran, Thane of Red Fell . Rhadamanthus is correct and please ignore what I wrote earlier.
September 25, 2019 10:46 a.m.
Thank you both for time and detailed responses. I appreciate it and other suggested cards!
I was hoping there was some other rule I wasn't considering were I would get to select order in which these replacement effects would be applied. Either way, the new legend is a welcomed addition to my dwarf deck!
September 25, 2019 1:11 p.m.
Agrothorn, if you're looking for card suggestions then I'd recommend heading over to the deck help forums, but odd the top of my head there's Jaya, Venerated Firemage and Embermaw Hellion . If you run an advanced search on Gatherer for red cards that say "would deal damage", you'll find a lot more.
September 25, 2019 2:10 p.m.
bcmagoofan says... #6
Can some one explain where it says your opponent gets to order the replacement effects in the rules, I can't find it. Thanks
June 10, 2020 6:34 p.m.
bcmagoofan, the relevant rules:
- 616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
and
- 616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
In the case of damage doubling/increasing effects like Inquisitor's Flail and Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, the affected player (your opponent) gets to choose the order in which the replacement effects apply.
Madcookie says... #1
Both Inquisitor's Flail and Torbran, Thane of Red Fell are replacement effects that you control so you can order them in whichever way you prefer.
In short the math is the following:
Spark Mage (1damage) + Thorban's effect (+2 damage) = 3 which gets multiplied by 2 from the flail for total 6 damage to opponent.
Subsequently Spark Mage triggers and deals (1damage) + thorban's effect(+2 damage) for a total of 3 damage to opponent's Llanowar Elves . (The flail only affects combat damage and thus has no effect in this interaction)
For extra clearance on replacement effects lets assume you also have Furnace of Rath and Angrath's Marauders on board. There are 2 ways to distribute the face damage to opponent
[(1 normal atk damage) +(2 from Thorban)]x2(from furnace) then again x2(flail) then again from marauders) for a total of (1+2)x2x2x2 or whopping 24 damage.
Technically there is an alternative ordering - [(1 normal atk damage) x2(from furnace) then again x2(flail) then again from marauders)+(2 from Thorban)] which results in 10 damage to opponent, if you choose to apply the Throban's effect last.
Hope this clears it. Cheers!
September 24, 2019 11:59 p.m.