Does Nicol Bolas, the Ravager lose counters?
Asked by RenarenTheWizard 5 years ago
Alright, so I'm about to make a legendary 5-color dragon deck and depending on how this works will affect what I put it in it. I was going to drop Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip in there if I ever got my hands on one, but I'm wondering this; Say I put Isareth the Awakener in my deck. Nicol Bolas get killed, flipped or un-flipped. I trigger Isareth's ability, and tap the 4 land need to bring it back into play, then I have enough mana to flip it and do so. Would it lose the corpse counter or no?
RenarenTheWizard says... #2
Alright, thanks dude. I probably will sideboard her though seeing as there's so much stuff you drop things from your graveyard to the battlefield, or all in all prevent things from dying, such as Abnormal Endurance or Primevals' Glorious Rebirth
October 25, 2018 7:16 p.m.
If you were to activate Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip's ability after it has been returned to the battlefield with Isareth the Awakener (note the corpse counter is just a reminder, even if you remove it the exile clause still applies) you would simply exile it and nothing will happen. Order is this:
1.Isareth the Awakener attacks, you pay 4 mana and return Bolas with corpse counter from your graveyard.
2.Second main you pay 4 and activate Bolas' ability. He is about to get exiled as part of resolution of the said ability that transforms him, and Isareth the Awakener's reanimate clause detects this and exiles it permanently instead because it is a replacement effect to anything that wants to remove the marked permanent from the battlefield.
Also just to put it out there double-cfaced cards are always considered to be face-up in all zones, unless otherwise specified (exiling or putting a card on the battlefield face-down would place it face-up instead (Ixidron, Gonti, Lord of Luxury etc) and if that were to happen to Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip he'd die as a state-based effect from having 0 loyalty on his planeswalker side if he was on the battlefield)
October 25, 2018 7:17 p.m.
@RenarenTheWizard @Rhadamanthus I just noticed there was another answer to this topic, while I was writing my own. Please note that Isareth the Awakener explicitly state that the counter doesn't matter at all and if just as a reminder. Also her ability is a replacement effect and will replace Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip's transform ability entirely just the same as if he was to be blinked by Ghostly Flicker.
From Gatherer If you somehow remove a corpse counter from a creature Isareth has returned to the battlefield, the replacement effect that will exile it continues to apply. The counter is only to help remind you which creatures will be exiled if they would leave the battlefield. (2018-07-13)
If Isareth leaves the battlefield, the replacement effect continues to apply. If one of the creatures it returned would leave the battlefield, it’ll be exiled instead. (2018-07-13)
October 25, 2018 7:38 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
Madcookie, notice that Isareth the Awakener's ability says "exile it instead of putting it anywhere else". That means it won't interfere with something that's already going to exile.
The following ruling (with some small variations) shows up in the Gatherer entries for most of the cards with an effect like this (Kheru Lich Lord, Whip of Erebos, creatures with Unearth, Dreams of the Dead). I don't know why it isn't included for all of them, but the same principle applies to Isareth.
If a creature card returned to the battlefield with Kheru Lich Lord would leave the battlefield for any reason, it’s exiled instead. However, if that creature is already being exiled, then the replacement effect won’t apply. If the spell or ability that exiles it later returns it to the battlefield (as Suspension Field might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The effects from Kheru Lich Lord will no longer apply to it.
October 25, 2018 11:29 p.m.
@Rhadamanthus Well I guess I got fooled by Isareth's gatherer (apparently lacking) rules and by your first explanation about the "loses the corpse counter" part.
@RenarenTheWizard Just to final clear the topic, ignore what I said earlier mate, apparently I was mistaken and Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip can flip at will regardless of corpse counters.
Sorry for the confusion :S
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
It would lose the corpse counter and would no longer be subject to the "if it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else" effect.
When an object changes zones, the game treats it as a brand new object with no relation to what it was before (minus a few exceptions needed to make certain things work properly). In your example this means any counters Nicol Bolas had before it left the battlefield will go away, and it also means Isareth's ability won't see it as the same object when it reenters the battlefield.
October 25, 2018 7:07 p.m.