+1 Punish the Enemy

On colour removal that hurts the enemy life? Fits into our primary plan perfectly.

I would like to point out the lack of pickable green cards and the fact that punish made it to us says to me that red isn't being highly picked to our right.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate all the way.

+1 Punish the Enemy

I'm on this with thebeardedshuffler. Punish is a lot better than it might seem. However, we seriously need to start fixing our mana. I hate seeing Orzhov Guildgate here and passing it. It won't come back, I reckon.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate definitely.

Kinda sucks we have to pass Riot Control but we could see it again.

We're probably not even going to play red at this point. The Gate is exactly the card we need.

Why? This would give us 3 good red cards, that we don't have to play early which is ideal for a splash colour. They help our attrition strategy.

Are we really going to drop all that potential good stuff for Putrefy ? Elaine at least can see that the aura isn't nearly as exciting as you seem to imagine it is. We're the wrong deck for that card.

The deck needs fixing if we're planning to play a third colour, I don't care what else is in this pack.

Punish is about the third or forth card I'd take from this pack if the gate was not an option.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Not picking gaze of granite was a big mistake. removal, especially such high value removal, is always more valuable than an aura, but I digress. we NEEEEEED fixing. we are so low its silly. and trying to pick a red card again right after picking to green cards? pick a side already guys! we cant be so wishy-washy anymore.

I will say that if we are running two main colours and a splash, it's easy enough to run 7/7/3 and do fine without guild gates. But Punish the Enemy is a main-board card. As is Maze Abomination , and any of the gatekeepers (you don't need gates for a 2/4 to fit into our strategy).

I won't argue that gates are a good thing, but we need more mainboard options so we can build the best deck we can. Especially when we have a slow gameplan to give us time to draw the splash colour, we can easily make a deck with only two primary colours work with basics.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Hate to take the gate at this point, but there are many cards in this pack that we can play. None of them scream "Take me!" but they're solid deckable choices. At least one of them will come back around. The gate isn't the best card in the pack, but this is a pack where we can gamble on something playable coming back around.

And Shuffler, you are cracking me up. Elaine also thought we were nuts for passing GoG. If you're going to make an appeal to expertise, then it's going to apply across the board.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate
The deck we're building would rather play a 5 mana creature than removal that we already have.

She clearly thought we had made a decision about the kind of deck we were going to make and expected the GoG. What she doesn't know, as she doesn't read these threads, is that we're just beset by people who get blinded by what they think are top cards, giving little or no thought to their strategic value.

My point is, she thought we were making a bad choice by picking Putrefy but assumed we had a plan. Now she thinks we're nuts for taking Unflinching Courage . There's a reason for that. We're taking silly cards, given our past picks.

I won't be as horrified if we take the gate, but Punish the Enemy is a strong limited card, at at just the right point on the curve for a splash.

You know, I was going to argue against the guildgate, but we may as well take it. We'll see what wheels and pick the best card once we've solidified our fixing.

Know what? I counted incorrectly. The odds are NOT good that something else will come back in this pack.

Gonna have to rethink my vote.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Last pick, we pretty much decided that this pick would be the one to determine whether we go WBR or WBG. But this pack really doesn't have a strong determiner either, and we need this gate. So let us postpone slightly, and see what next pick brings. We do need to choose though, and the sooner the better. I don't know that 4-color is workable unless we just have the right guildgates fall all over us.

The other pick I might consider here is Smelt-Ward Gatekeepers , simply because Act of Treason is a good time, and essentially stapling a 1 cost 2/4 to it is also great. Then again, gotta have Gates to fuel the greatness.....

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

At this point we have no choice, people. We MUST prioritize fixing or we are going to have a ton of problems. and the Orzhov Guildgate is even in our primary colors! Think, people.

I give up. I'll vote for the decklist. But this is all tooooooo stressful for me.

+1 Maze Abomination

We're plying orzhov, and I know it's dumb to ever say this in limited, but we have enough removal. We need dudes, and dudes that will affect the board and make our spells even better. Assuming we can get to the later game we need to be able to end it. I would take the abomination because its humongous and unstoppable.

This is why DGM is picked first and not last, we want to be picking cards to fill vital spots in our deck but instead we are in a position where fixing is at a premium.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Agree with the mana fixing requirement.

God this deck is going to be awful.... we have no plan.

Is there a way to drop? lol

• Orzhov Guildgate

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

We might be able to get a Maze Abomination to table if we steal any related gates now in any packs where the picks aren't so hot.

Or any related gatekeepers

I hope Ubul Sar Gatekeepers comes our way if we can get a few more gates.

However I have to say that I'm really questioning how good this deck is going to be. We'll see.

I think there are a few problems with this debate. Perhaps because of the order of the packs, we're still struggling to decide on our colors, and that has led to much arguing over what should have been simple decisions. There's also the possibility that the other drafters (maybe due to inexperience, maybe because of the pack order) are having similar problems where they are taking cards that do not fit their plan best, simply because they are good possibilities. Perhaps we are just paying too much attention to what Elaine and Caley seem to think on the matter, doubting ourselves, and changing our minds. Remember, while they are definitely good players, they are not us; we don't have to follow what they say. We'll make a deck and it'll be decent enough no matter what cards we pick now, we just have to come together on a decision instead of making it harder on ourselves.

As of right now, there are three possibilities for the deck: BWR, BWG, BWrg. Perhaps we should vote on the best option?

Orzhov Guildgate all the way here. I knew Gaze of Granite was the way to go. I can't believe we didn't get it. That was kind of sad.

Wait no, Riot Control . What a fantastic spell. Well worth the pick here. If only we had Gaze of Granite.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

We need to make good on fixing.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

We need fixing, and so far not much in this pack is really impressive. Punish the Enemy is nice but expensive for what it does.

+1 Selesnya Cluestone

We don't need White/Black fixing. Our main colors are White/Black. We need some fixing for green/red and my vote is green for Putrefy and Unflinching Courage .

We should be able to snag a Selesnya Cluestone when pack one rolls around again.

Atm I want to grab the gate and hoard as many as we can so we can potentially get people to pass good gate creatures back around to us.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Remember that we need fixing?

please god don't let us have to pick Cluestones

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

If we don't take that Gate, we are completely, utterly, totally, royally screwed. It may very well be the only one we can use that comes our way.

At this point, with our B/W gate looking to be the pick here, and already having the G/B gate from way back when, I feel like a focus should probably be towards more WBG, unless we luck into another crazy red drop that forces us the other way. While there is still time to consider the red splash (3 or 4 color), it is fleeting.

I still don't feel Gaze was the way to go and I'm glad we didn't go all googly-eyed and pick it.

Gaze would have been a pretty amazing pick.

I mean any game where we started with it in the opening hand would of given us a pretty good chance of winning that game since we could play around it and blindside out opponent with it.

Hate to dwell on the past, but I really have to agree with Supersun.

Anyway, yeah, I think it's safe to say we've committed to BWG, unless we can somehow pull something amazing in red. Even then, I thing the Golgari Guildgate tips the scales for green.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

I want to pick a gatekeeper, but we need a little bit of fixing. This pack doesn't really have any removal or bombs for us. Playable cards, yes. But not as important as mana fixing, unfortunately.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Should cast my official vote lol. I'm sure some stuff will wheel, and I know we'll work out a good deck

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

I want to pick Punish the Enemy , but it may be even more important to start fortifying our mana base unless something seriously nice comes along.

1 Orzhov Guildgate

I like the black gatekeeper, but we don't have the gates to make it work right now. Also Maze Abomination is still a good card in my opinion, but it won't help to draft that, if we're sitting on green and white mana only.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

KrazyCaley, can we get movin now? i think the majority vote is for the guildgate.

Current count is:

Orzhov Guildgate - 20

Punish the Enemy - 2

Maze Abomination - 1

Riot Control - 1

Selesnya Cluestone -1

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

I just want to say that I do hope one of those Maze Abomination make it back to us because it would wreck shop in this limited format

bluemax87 Same here, I still believe that Maze Abomination is a really solid creature, even without multicolored creatures to give deathtouch.

Though either of those two tabling seems unlikely to me. We got handed two Stab Wound and immediately soaked up both. I think this will happen if someone sees Maze Abomination as something that could be of use in their deck. Drafting two in a row seems very decent to anyone.

I honestly like the Guildgate here because it's clearly in our colors and we NEED the fixing this late in the draft...

Well I'm not totally bummed with the gate, but that's three packs now we've taken either irrelevant cards or marginal impact land over main board worthy cards.

Is Punish the Enemy really worth potentially LOSING 2 main deck worthy cards? Because if we don't get some gates eventually our current creatures that require a gate to be fully effective might need to be cut and both of them are better then Punish the Enemy .

I would really have loved to take Maze Abomination or Ubul Sar Gatekeepers here but we do need to take the guildgate

I'm hoping that others have also procrastinated with their guild gate picking and if we start hogging a few they might pass a few of those gatekeepers back around since they don't benefit their deck.

+1 Ubul Sar Gatekeepers

Uh. Now is not the time to pick a guild gate. You do realize that every pack of Dragon Maze has one right?

We will see more.

Voting for Ubul. Because it's removal on a stick.

@apt142: The problem is that people will start picking gates from DGM packs around pick 5. We might not even see another gate. We currently have only one gate and even if we manage to pick one or two more gates, we can't rely on having them on the field when we cast Ubul Sar Gatekeepers . We would actually be casting them as vanilla 2/4 creature more often than not.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

Need fixing.

apt142 Ubul Sar Gatekeepers is a good card. However with the amount of guild gates we currently have, I don't like our chances of having both Ubul Sar Gatekeepers and 2 gates.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

There are only two cards missing from this pack. The options available to us for beefing up the deck are at the most optimal point we can get.

The gates will be there in the next few picks. But, right now we should take advantage of the luxury of choice. There are some very solid choices here for beating somebody's face in.

I'd definitely gamble we'll pick up 2 more gates before this is done. So, I'm seeing Ubul as a strong choice. But even if we don't think think we'll snag more, I think the Maze Abomination would warrant a stronger value than the guildgate.

It's a killer in combat and really difficult to remove. And it only requires on little black mana to put out there. Fixing or not, it's a guaranteed solid addition to our deck.

But, I'm liking Ubul better because it's more defensive, cheaper to cast and lets us slap another creature upside the face. And I think we'll be able to pick up the appropriate gates to make it work.

Either is a stronger choice than the gate at this point in time in my opinion.

-1 Orzhov Guildgate

+1 Maze Abomination

I still want this card. It will be one of the closest things we have to a game-ender.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

I take one day off from DDD and the hivemind picks an Aura over a wipe spell... I can't believe it.

I think we may still be able to make up our minds with Green or Red in this pick.

As of right now we have ~20 playable for a BWg deck. and ~19 for a BWr deck.

which ever way we lean we will still need a couple creatures. If we continue with our recent green movement we need to prioritize creatures and fixing. If we switch back to red as our splash we need to prioritize removal and fixing.

so we can take the Orzhov Guildgate here hoping the next pick will make our chose of splash.

we can take the Punish the Enemy to fulfill our need for red removal. I guess Smelt-Ward Gatekeepers can act as temporary removal and would give us another body, but I do not think we are well positioned to take advantage of an Act of Treason -like effect

we can take Saruli Gatekeepers , Ubul Sar Gatekeepers , or Maze Abomination to help out our creature base for a green splash.

at this point each of us need to figure out what "camp" we are in (splash red, splash green, wait to decide) Then those "camps" should unify their pick to make this a little more of a cohesive vote.

-1 Orzhov Guildgate

+1 Ubul Sar Gatekeepers

I just looked at our decklist and have a little bit to add to what BeerShaker said.

Our creatures are mainly BWR, I think we're going to end up playing BWrg.

Personally, I think that we should be aiming for BWRg (little g, heavy emphasis R) because our 2-4 drops that include red are SO GOOD (or tough to deal with anyway). I really think we shouldn't have taken Putrefy or Unflinching; however, now that we have, we have to make the best of a bad situation.

Here's what we really need: 1) About 2-3 fixing gates. This turns on Armory Guard, Gatekeepers, and Ogre Jailbreaker

2) More removal. You can't ever have enough (we only have ~ 5 removal spells, 6 if you count Rites of Reaping).

3) Another bomb would be nice.

4) Maybe 2-3 more value creatures to put us to 17 (I'm not counting the Drudge Beetle).

That's what we really need.

+1 Orzhov Guildgate

-1 Selesnya Cluestone +1 Ubul Sar Gatekeepers

Four colour is madness. Splashing green is foolish. We should follow the red splash plan. I don't mind taking the gate or the gategeepers, but punish the enemy is the strongest card in this pack.

We need fixing and removal.

We already have and enchantment and a land that help us with the green splash. We have one and a half green-fueled removal spells. Putrefy is instant speed and unconditional. (Not counting Pit Fight since it is both colors.)

Red provides zero fixing. The only red removal we have is conditional.

Go green.

I'll add that the only way our red removal gets better is if we take it in this pick. To do that, we'd need to pass on more fixing.

+1 Ubul Sar Gatekeepers

The nice thing about this drafting set up is that we can take a long time over our picks. So look at the deck and look at our options. We only have 15 playables in black and white + our 2 or 3 splash green's + our 2 or 3 splash red's. Either way we need to pickup a few more playables, even over mana fixing. So take the solid creature that will make our deck no matter what.

About the removal: Punish the Enemy is a good pick here, no doubt. We need creatures though, and actually already have 3 removal spells with double Stab Wound and One Thousand Lashes . + maybe Putrefy . That's more than most draft decks and makes me happy with staying on color for a sure-fire guy.

+1 Orzhov Gate

We really shouldnt be taking gatekeepers until we have at least 3 or 4 gates.

I think the idea is to get another usable body, not so much that he is a gatekeeper. At least that's why I voted in that direction.

Riot Control

the fixing we need will come from the basic lands we put in the deck after we finish drafting the packs, a land draw mid game isnt gonna be a chump blocker nor will it swing in for any amount of damage, riot control can save our butts mid game, gain us life which buys us time for another draw potentially a game changer. unless we draw the orzhov guildgate in our opening three turns each game it wont really be fixing anything, but thats only because we arent getting a garaunteed playset of guildgate, which is why im not too big a fan of them in these formats..

also wanted to mention, an aura deck in any format basically says, im going to get 2 for 1'd all night.. and the moment we get a hand full of aura's and no body on the field we lose. stall out and durdle til the cows come home.

as far as gaze of granite on the last pick, since we are going perm heavy with auras and creatures, throwing in a gaze would potentially be sabatoge/suicidal for the theme we have so i can see why we majority passed it up, although in any other instance, we should have prolly picked it.. if not just to hate draft it and not worry about someone else brewing a golgari deck with the potential to wrath each game.

Too much fruitless arguing going on. Never thought I'd say this, but I'd prefer if we were all sheep and just followed one argument and decided on it. The deck is almost made at this point; these cards will help the deck for sure, but they will in no way shape it. We're arguing over the flavor of icing on a cake that's already baked and ready to be eaten; it's not like we'll run out of gates before we need to get them AND run out of playable creatures AND run out of removal spells AND run out of utility spells; let's just pick something and get this moving, because we'll end up with most if not all the cards we need regardless. Sure, maybe our cake will taste a little better if we pick strawberry whipped cream instead of chocolate, but by the time we finish arguing about it, we'll have stopped wanting to taste it.

Just pick a card and enjoy this process, it's supposed to be fun.

Moving along.

+1 Maze Abomination

no matter how we cut this we are going to need more dudes. this guy fits our big butt theme and could very well win us games by smashing for 4 a turn, or at least slowly taking out all their creatures.

I won last FNMs draft at my LGS pretty much just off of two of the green maze thing and the blue primordial. You do not need other multicolor creatures for these guys to pull their weight.

right now we should take the bomb-esque creature that will fit in the deck no matter where our third (or, gasp, 4th) color lies.