another firesong question

Asked by Alegaard 2 months ago

Firesong and Sunspeaker , Embermaw Hellion and Fiery Emancipation are on the battlefield under my control. i unattached Sunforger to search for and cast Lightning Helix then I cast Reverberate from my hand targeting Lightning Helix how much dmg and life gain should I have done/gotten.

Polaris says... #1

Most of the interactions you're asking about are replacement effects, so let's give those a quick run-down first. A replacement effect is written "if X, Y instead." In this case, you'll see these on Embermaw Hellion , Fiery Emancipation , and a secret one on Firesong and Sunspeaker , since lifelink replaces "dealing damage" with "dealing damage and gaining life." Replacement effects don't use the stack, and when they apply to an event you can think of them rewriting the event: This thing with lifelink deals damage (actually, it deals damage and you gain life).

So, with that out of the way, on to your question. You unattach Sunforger to cast Lightning Helix . Then you Reverberate it, so after Reverberate resolves you have two Lightning Helixes ready to resolve. When the copy resolves, it first tries to deal damage, and all three replacement effects apply. Since you control them all, you can apply them in any order you want. Lifelink can go anywhere in the order, since it's not changing any relevant numbers.

Mathematically, it's advantageous to add the 1 damage from Embermaw Hellion and then triple the damage with Fiery Emancipation, so if you apply them like that, the event now reads like this: Lightning Helix deals 3 (Embermaw Hellion: actually 4) (Fiery Emancipation: actually 12) damage (lifelink: actually 12 damage and 12 lifegain). It deals the 12 damage and you gain 12 life, then you do the second effect of Lightning Helix and gain another 3 life.

The original Lightning Helix's resolution goes the same way, so you end up dealing 24 damage and gaining 30 life. If you have other abilities that trigger when you deal damage or gain life, they'll see you dealing 12 damage twice and gaining 12 life, then 3 life, then 12 life, then 3 life (so Heliod, Sun-Crowned would trigger four times total to put a +1/+1 counter on something).

July 17, 2021 10:36 p.m.

Polaris says... #2

Oh yeah, forgot to apply Firesong and Sunspeaker 's trigger (knew I forgot something). As outlined above, each time a copy of Lightning Helix resolves, you have gained 12 life and 3 life, so Firesong and Sunspeaker will trigger twice (four times total). Similar to how it worked with Lightning Helix, the best arrangement of Embermaw Hellion and Fiery Emancipation will boost the 3 damage to 12 each time, so the four Firesong and Sunspeaker triggers will net you another 48 damage. If you've been keeping track, that's 72 damage total to go with your 30 life gained.

Ultimately, this is your opponent's fault for not removing any of your 5 and 6 mana combo pieces before you did this.

July 17, 2021 10:46 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #3

The copy will behave exactly like the original Lightning Helix , so I am going to do the math for a single instance and then just double the result.

Embermaw Hellion and Fiery Emancipation are both replacement effects and the numbers will depend on how to apply them. Following numbers are assuming you apply the replacement effects in the manner to maximize damage (Hellion first and then Emancipation).

Each Lightning Helix will deal 12 ([3+1]3) damage and gain 3 life from it's own effect. Lifelink will gain you 12 life from the damage done and FS/SS will trigger from both the spell effect and the lifelink life gain giving you 2 instances of 12 ([3+1]3) damage. FS/SS do not themselves have lifelink, so no life is gained from the triggers.

That is 36 damage and 15 life gain from each Lightning Helix for a total of 72 damage and 30 life gain.

July 17, 2021 10:51 p.m.

Neotrup says... #4

The player being dealt the damage choses the order in which to apply the two replacement effects, so most likely they will choose to take 10 damage from the lightning helices. If you wanted to make sure it's the fill 12 to get bigger firesong and sunspeaker triggers you could target yourself or you creatures/planeswalkers. Assuming it's only 10 damage, the triggers from gaining 10 life will deal 31 damage (again, if your opponent wants to take less). If you dealt 12 those same triggers would deal 37 instead. The triggers from gaining 3 life will deal 10 damage.

July 18, 2021 2:36 p.m.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.

The damaged player, or controller of the damaged permanent, chooses what order to apply replacement effects in. Assuming you are damaging your opponent or their permanent(s), they choose the order to apply the replacement effects in. Thus each instance of 3 damage becomes 3(3)+1 or 10 damage. Each helix deals 10 damage, gains 3 from its own effect, lifelinks for 10, gaining 13 life total and triggering 2 instances of 3 (or rather 10) damage from firesong. So that's 30 damage and 13 lifegain per helix, for a total of 60 damage and 26 lifegain after Reverberate.

July 18, 2021 9:52 p.m.

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