Prizes at drafts
General forum
Posted on June 12, 2013, 10:51 a.m. by gufymike
Just curious how you guys do drafting at your LGS. Do you keep everything you draft, even rares and play for packs or do you guys Rochester the rares that are pulled at the end (rochestering players keep the uncommon/commons they draft)?
At my lgs, we rochester the rares winner picking first, last place picking last and go in order till all rares are gone. If a foil rare is opened the winner can get 4 rares. The picking is done in order and one at a time. so 1st place, gets 1st, 9th, 17th picks, last place gets 8th, 16th, 24th and so on.
Also what do you think is the better choice?
Personally, I like the rochestering because it cuts down on 'money drafting', even if you are just drafting to get cards. makes it a bit more competitive also.
We Rochester as well and I find that people make more competitive decks when not money drafting. I recall one DGR draft wher I opened an Obzedat, Ghost Council and had 0 white/black cards. I had to pass it and the next person passed it as well. It was then that I fully appreciated the way we do things because later when I won the draft I still got to pick it up. :)
June 12, 2013 11:07 a.m.
The only thing I don't like about Rochester, I might add, is it takes away from communication and hate-drafting. I wouldn't have passed an Obzedat, Ghost Council , like psychoza did, because I wouldn't want the Orzhov player sitting at my table to take it.
June 12, 2013 11:16 a.m.
There was a better pick that fit/made my deck stronger than hate drafting the Orzhov player denying the Obzedat. I can see your reasoning though.
June 12, 2013 11:23 a.m.
I don't think it does sylvannos I occasionally hate draft when I definitely do not want to see a card against me and the pack is short on what I want/need. Communication is not disrupted as you tend to get a feel for what everyone is drafting by mid second pack (those nearest you mid first pack).
Consider this, in a draft, it's usually 45 cards and you're only going to mainboard 21-25 usually 23 of those cards, that still leaves 20 slots of cards you will not use and plenty of room to hate draft.
June 12, 2013 11:25 a.m.
i wish the stores i went to did Rochester, but no they are basically all keep what you draft, and you get somw people just messing things up as they try to assemble the money deck of do nothing. while you have a few people trying to draft. it is normally not horrid as there is only one or two at each of the stores but you really notice when they do not show up.
June 12, 2013 11:34 a.m.
My store allows you to keep everything you draft, but we have a special rule.
If there is a foil Mythic Rare in the pack, you are allowed to buy the entire pack itself (so you don't feel like you HAVE to pick the card and it may screw up your draft), and then recieve a new pack.
Other than that, we keep everything we draft and the prize for 1st is 3 packs, for 2nd it's 1.
June 12, 2013 11:49 a.m.
If you're going to draft the rares at the end, I think it's a lot more fair to draft down then up,
IE 1st plays gets 1st pick, down to 8th who gets 8th and 9th pick, and back up. So 1st place ends up with 1, 16, 17
The advantage, especially in sets like MM, to get to pick the foil tarmagoyf should be prize enough for the winner. And it means that the loser is still likely getting none of the really good money cards, but at least with 8th and 9th pick doesn't get nothing but total shit.
June 12, 2013 11:52 a.m.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #10
When you draft and packs are your prize support you will typically get 3 types of people. the first is the people that pick the good cards from the packs (money drafters), the second is the people pick a money card here and there but still plan on making a good deck, the third is people who only pick cards that are good for their deck and try to win packs. Depending on the prize support, it is typically better to try and win the first prize and get packs. I haven't had a problem with either rochesters or prize packs, it all depends on what you want to do.
If you have a person money drafting at the table, it can pretty much eliminate them from the competition, making it easier to win packs. I would say rochestering is in general, more competitive since everyone's cards are on the line.
June 12, 2013 11:58 a.m.
The 15th/16th pick in a MM draft was Bridge from Below (we had 2 in our pool). You're not losing out, I got enough (finishing 8th) to pay for the draft and make 'a profit', $ wise. Typical in DGR drafts also, you tend to get enough $ wise to break even, even in last place.
25$ entry (at the time) for MM Draft10$ for regular draft.
It really is hard not to get value all the way down and you do end up with a nice deck you can tweak and build into a fun constructed deck also.
June 12, 2013 11:58 a.m.
My LGS is doing a $35 Modern Masters Draft on Friday, and they always do a keep what you draft.
Not being a regular Modern player but wanting to get more playable Modern cards, it's going to be hard for me to decide what/how to draft...
As I don't expect to do overly well (not used to the cards), my first few picks of each pack are likely to be money cards (researching prices as I type this)... no reason to pay $35 entry, not be likely to get to top 8, and only get a pile of $0.50 cards.
After that, I have a number of cards I'll be looking for, simply because I like the card... even though they may not be that great.
Then, hopefully I can get a few cards that might make for some competition in the draft.
.... Here's to hoping for a $500 Foil Tarmogoyf ....
June 12, 2013 12:13 p.m.
Absinthman says... #13
In my LGSs there is a simple rule. By default, there is a rochester raredraft in the end. However, if even a single player is against it and calls for keep what you drafted, all other players are forced to comply, which basically means that we're always moneydrafting because there is always gonna be that one guy.
June 12, 2013 12:22 p.m.
My LGS is keep everything you draft with further prize support, and I honestly think that's the proper way to go, at least for FNM.
While I'm happy to Rochester if I'm just drafting with friends, especially if we do something like back-draft, I see Rochester only getting in the way and discouraging new players from getting into the game at a store event. Opening a chase mythic feels good, and for someone new that's already not going to play well it's having that lottery that will keep them coming back and feeling like they are not just flushing money. Brand-new player Bob will still be excited to come to FNM next week even if he goes 0-4 but he takes home a Voice of Resurgence , that's going to be a lot less likely if he get's stuck with Palisade Giant , Whispering Madness and Boros Battleshaper because he's still learning. Rochester only benefits players who routinely do well by letting them essentially cherry pick from a greater pool of open pack than what they saw.
But I also think the "issue" of money drafting is often greatly inflated.
June 12, 2013 12:27 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #15
It really depends on the playgroup and whether or not you want it to be competitive.
If you want good competition, run a rochester draft or a team draft (same thing, but split into 2 teams. best team gets to rochester for prizes). That will cut down on raredrafting, and will result in better, more competitive decks.
If you're just playing for fun it's easier to just keep what you draft. You will always get "that guy" who first-picks a shock land over a bomb uncommon, but that's just part of the game. You can always yell at him later until he learns to not be a twat.
June 12, 2013 12:36 p.m.
we have two different drafts, the FNM draft which you keep all the cards but we do a team draft which is you have randomly picked teams and then each team plays matches and the team with most points wins the draft and losing team hands over all their cards to winning team and the winning team splits it up the way they want, it helps cutting on people taking all the money cards I mean I passed up on a foil blood crypt just to build a deck so I didnt bring down the team. Team drafts are fun and helps cut down on people just taking all money then being dumb about it
June 12, 2013 12:36 p.m.
Slycne I think getting the lesser rare is a good thing, if you want to improve and become a better player. Where I play it's highly competitive to the point there are very few, if any 60 card theme decks for fun. All decks are high value (playability vs cost) competitive decks, quite a few net decks and/or stock shells that most pros run. A few of our players/regulars have dreams of winning a PTQ, some have and most want to go pro.
If you're there for fun and games, bring your own cards and play commander (though even commander is a bit on the highly competitive side) and/or played sealed. Sealed is 30$ here but it's 6 packs and keep what you get and there are prizes, usually 2.5 packs per player involved, paying out the top 2-4 (depending on the number of people playing).
Team drafting we don't do, but team sealed we do once in a great while and probably on m14 release weekend we'll do that for one of the games.
June 12, 2013 1:20 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #18
I've only ever done keep what you draft. Seems the only fair way to do it to me. Then again I will counterpick against opponents if I see something that I know I can't deal with come around the table and I don't have a better option. I will say that if I open a pack and see a $40 card staring back at me... it pays for this draft and my next one, and dinner, I will take it, but how often does that actually happen? Other than that, I'd rather win. Rochestering seems more like a way for the store to not hand out prizes.
I really like Cdawg44's store's rule.
June 12, 2013 1:47 p.m.
gufymike Isn't that what normal prize support is for though?
I guess what I fail to see is how Rochester magically improves the competitiveness across the board. Sure, the dream is to be in the pro-tour Ben Stark situation of being comfortable passing on Domri Rade for a Mugging , but the quality of players hasn't changed at your LGS. Just because the correct pick has been incentivized over the value pick doesn't mean anyone will automatically start recognizing what the correct pick is. You can just as easily make a wrong pick on a pack with nothing but commons left in it, draft a bad curve or not correctly build and balance your mana base. Nothing changes about the draft other than that one facet, which is why I feel the scourge of "rare-drafting" is so vastly over-inflated. You're draft pool is so much more than just those 3-4 picks.
The way I see it Rochester has a polarizing effect: winning is more greatly rewarded with not only prize support but also with choice rares, and thus loosing is more greatly punished. Where as 'keep everything' winning is still rewarded with prize support, but loosing is not additionally made negative. So the only net result from Rochester is to make loosing that much worse off, at the very least whenever I Rochester with a group we will snake draft winnings. So for instance, the 1st get's 1st pick, but last gets both 8th and 9th pick and then working backwards back up to 1st. This still rewards doing well with early picks, but also ensures a more even distribution overall.
However, if your store and community has found a system that works for you, more power to you.
June 12, 2013 2:15 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #20
Rochestering sounds totally unfair, i wouldn't put up with it.
Not only does the winner get good rares to play with (which lets them win) they then get to steal your money rares at the end, leaving you a humiliated puddle of muck with crumby cards.
Nonsense.
June 12, 2013 2:25 p.m.
Slycne not what I mean really, it is the culture of things here. The quality of the players is very high already. To compete and win a good card, means to improve your skill set. It really isn't a matter of rochestering vs keep what you draft, just that rochestering means here if you want to win something good, you better be prepared to draft with skill and play with skill. And if you don't have that skill, you learn through losing (learn to be better, what you did wrong, etc... no shortage of teachers either here).
The way I see it is that you're giving two things away, a. some sort of feel good award. I think awards should be earned and adversity is something to overcome not be given an out for (minor point, but adversity is important to have for growth and strength). The last part is more economical, you're forcing the draft to cost more (for the prize pool). At 10$ per person a draft, the store is already losing funds for 3 pack drafts. If you add in prize packs, that means it goes up. 10$ is a lot for a lot of the players already, so then if you go to 15$-10$ drafts, you will lose quite a few drafters.
Being able to not pick the domri and get the mugging because it's a better pick means that your actually are a drafter with some skill. It is a good thing for everyone involved, you get better decks to play and play against, you get a fun competitive tournament. Most people are about the $$ and if you're not, good/lucky for you. A lot more are about the value of the card and how they can 'pay for the draft with one card'.
I'm not a person who thinks everyone should win. We need the variance in losing vs winning to make everyone better. Earn what you get is the better way IMO. Cause then if losing is a good thing, then we start to diminish the quality of play and players... speaking strictly of tournaments. Everyone winning should be done only in casual environments and play.
If you got a casual environment, sweet. I do envy you sometimes. Because I want to be casual sometimes, but the culture here is that every game should be played like it's your most important game. I don't have a beef with it, there are reasons outside of the game as to why. But then that's why I play commander with some stupid decks, to play casually and be able to sit back and bs.
June 12, 2013 3:19 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #22
gufymike plays MtG in Sparta.
That being said. The player quality at my FNM is high and mistakes are always punished in game. That doesn't mean you can keep what you picked at draft. (We do run $15 on Fridays, $10 on Wednesdays).
June 12, 2013 3:36 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #23
I personally like Rochestering. One of my first experiences with Magic was a Gatecrash draft with friends. Naturally they destroyed me, and my haul ended up being a Frontline Medic , Luminate Primordial , and Foundry Champion . Yet here I am, still playing. The fact is, the value of winning is worth the chance of getting garbage. And for new players, if they truly enjoy the game, it'll drive them to want to get better. If someone quits because they are inexperienced and lost at a draft, they clearly never had the aptitude to learn how to play better in the first place.
June 12, 2013 3:56 p.m.
@ gufymike
I understand your logic in that you have a competitive group... but that also means that there is no room for new "less competitive" players to join.
They would automatically be set-up to lose, as well as not get any value... they would be paying the entry fee of a draft... only to have competitive players take all the value of the packs that were opened. Thus competitive players get BOTH the "playable" cards, and the "value" cards... sounds a little bias to me.
When playing a keep what you draft, even the less experienced players always have a chance of getting some value for their entry fee.
Playing Rochester in your group does not sound like a way to keep up competition, so much as a way to "keep out" those who are less competitive/experienced. - I hope for their sake that there is anothe place for them to play, otherwise their options are to not play at all, or keep getting "ripped-off" until they gain some experience.
My standpoint will always be that:
A part of the entry fee to a draft is the cost of the packs... if you pay that fee, you should be entitled to the contents of the pack as you pick them;
A part of the skill in playing a draft is to know what to pick, if you choose to pick playability over value, that was your choice, the other players shouldn't be penalized for their choice.
June 12, 2013 3:59 p.m.
Rayenous I am a 'new' (under a year) player to drafting and the group and do not feel that way. But I have always been big on rewards are earned. No one is forcing anyone to draft. We've had fnm canceled because there were not enough drafters (or players for any tournament, graduation night) and no one complained. As I understand it also, the drafts didn't go off before as often as they do now because not enough players to draft due to costs and bad drafting because of money drafters, which had lots of complaints. In short the community I draft with prefers this system to others and is shown by attendance.
Though there is another place to play in town. I don't know the status of things there because I don't go there, both places have the same hours and prefer 'my lgs' (where the core group of regulars are great fun to be around) to the other.
As for your second standpoint, I think you are penalizing others for another's choice. If you have a 1-2 people there just drafting the most expensive cards (we al know the most expensive cards do not always make the best decks and hard to play even for the most experienced players) then you're hosing the other players entertainment value of playing good/strong games against those opponents.
June 12, 2013 4:15 p.m.
My cousin and her boyfriend started playing magic less than a month ago. They did their first draft with us this past Sunday and we Rochestered as normal. They said they enjoyed themselves a lot, were happy to get the cards they did, and said they would happily do it again.
Any argument about new players not enjoying themselves / leaving because they can't grab the best cards are completely incorrect. The whole time we had matches with them, there was a lot of communication about what things were good to draft and what was bad. What they could have done differently, and when it came time to choose cards they were given advice on what to choose depending on the decks they primarily wanted to make better.
To each their own, but it is definitely not reasonable to say Rochester drafting is making the draft experience not fun for newer players. I would not claim that the "keep what you draft" style is horrible. It implies that everyone should always take the money card from each pack before "seriously drafting" if you know someone in your group is a money drafter. In my group their are those so we just nipped it in the beginning and it has been good ever since.
June 12, 2013 4:27 p.m.
It really comes down to the people who you are drafting with. Because I can say my group is friendly, encouraging, smart and competitive. Competitive does not always mean asshole. It just means people wanting to play their best and get the best from their opponent (best game, not best of). All win or lose with grace and style, no hard feelings, and we go at it again next week. Rochestering is fun and encouraging, in my experience. If your experience says otherwise, I'm sorry.
June 12, 2013 4:36 p.m.
Rayenous melissa detora did a good mm draft write up on tcgplayer today, might be worth the read for you.
June 12, 2013 4:46 p.m.
I simply see prize supported 'keeps' as the best of both worlds for REL events like FNM. Yes, you're paying a little more upfront on the draft, but winners are still rewarded with packs or store credits and losers are not stuck purely with the dredge of picks.
But I agree it does ultimately come down to the group your playing with, not unlike say the divide between swiss, 4-3-2-2 and 8-4s online. Some people are willing to put more on the line for greater returns in exchange for risking lower. I do think both sides can concede that for every player that might rise to the challenge of Rochester in order to start getting better picks, there is also a player that would find that fatiguing.
sylvannos says... #2
I haven't done a Rochester draft since Unhinged was released (which was done because a lot of people weren't familiar with the set).
Everywhere has always done "keep what you draft." Money drafting isn't really a problem because it gimps your deck when you try and build from a pool of four colors because you chose Gyre Sage over Gift of Orzhova in your Orzhov deck, for example.
One pack is always given to first. Prize payout really depends on player turnout. Usually it's a 2 packs for first, 1 for second with six people, 3-2-1-1 with eight, 5-3-1-1 with twelve, etc. or an equivalent amount of store credit ($3 instead of taking a pack).
All my stores are also willing to allow prize support for unsanctioned events. We can opt to buy stuff from the store as an entry fee, then draft from someone's cube. That's the best way to cut down on money drafting if it's that much of an issue. Building a pauper cube for the store wouldn't be a bad idea, or a junk rare draft where your entry fee is 45 rares, then you draft them from "packs" of 15.
June 12, 2013 11:07 a.m.