Brain Maggot + Polymorphous Rush
General forum
Posted on May 30, 2014, 4:20 a.m. by kengiczar
As of < Comprehensive Rules as of October 1, 2012> the battlefield is a zone. Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20121001.pdf
Now onto more complex matters.
Please CTRL+F 603.6c which states 603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield toanother zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves thegame. These are written as, but arent limited to, When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . .or Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . . An ability thatattempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zonethat it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone from anywhere isnever treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from thebattlefield.
Now I know that's a scary wall of text so let me put just the part that matters by itself: "Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game."
Why does this matter kiddies? Because of Brain Maggot and Polymorphous Rush!
First Brain Maggot:http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380382
Second Polymorphous Rush:http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380474
From what we've learned above if I change my Brain Maggot into a Desecration Demon or even an Elvish Mystic the Brain Maggot does NOT leave the battlefield because Brain Maggot did not meet the requirements for 603.6C which again specifically said " moves from the battlefield to another zone". Pretty certain that if the rules writing folks didn't think the part about "to
another zone" was important it wouldn't be there.
So now maybe some of you want to stop making me think that Brain Maggot DOES leave the zone and expect me to drop it because "Why is this even important? Why is this even an issue? This is a non-issue.".
This IS an issue. A HUGE issue. First off Brain Maggot is a 2 drop for just 1 black mana, meaning many decks can run it. Second he's an enchantment which is more relevant now than perhaps the last four or five blocks. Third he's a cheap easy way for non-mono black to get hand disruption. It's almost as if somebody said "Man thoughtseize is so ridiculous. We should print a poor man's version of this card". Not like that has ever happened before (rolls eyes). Fourth he can target any card!
This is where things get really interesting. if I've got a brain maggot on the field who has exiled a Cyclonic Rift, Swansong, Dark Betrayel, Ultimate Price or any number of other instants then you can bet your dollar that i'm going to cast Mass Polymorph almost anytime that I have to protect my board state! Once I cast the Mass Polymorph Brain Maggot if i've "chosen" Brain Maggot then he has "become a copy" of the target of Mass Polymorph.
Right now some of you may be scoffing saying "Aha! But he did leave!" Well, he didn't leave, he has simply "become a copy" of something else. Since he is a copy of something else he no longer has his abilities. This means that even if he dies IMPORTANT during the turn he has "become a copy of" creature Z because of Mass Polymorph the "leaves the battlefield" trigger which is granted by the text of Brain Maggot will no longer occur because Brain Maggot no longer exists!
Even if your going to try to argue that Brain Maggot has to have left left the battlefield in order to become a copy of Polymorphous Rush because "that's how all those other cards worked" such as clone let me remind you that Clone specifically states "enters the battlefield" and that clone is cast from your hand which is a defined zone.
Still skeptic? Here are all of the "zones" in MTG: Hand, Battlefield, Graveyard, Stack, Exile, Ante, Command. That's it, those seven. There are only seven zones. There is no "nether region" teehee or other mystical zone you can use to full-fill your fantasy of dashing my hopes because I don't have or need hope when I've got reality on my side. He didn't go into exile, he didn't go to the graveyard, he didn't go to my hand or library and Brain Maggot can never go to the Command Zone because he isn't a freaking legendary.
So now that you are hopefully willing to accept the text in the official rules and on the cards themselves I'll wrap this up. This a HUGE way to permanently exile things! I'd gladly turn each of my creatures into a Pack Rat for the turn. Starfish? It's a packrat. Battlefield Thaumaturge? It's a Pack Rat. Sylvan Caryatid? (for you fancy 3 color players) it's a also a Pack Rat and in response to Polymorphous Rush resolving after the blockers have been chosen I will tap him for a mana to have the mana for a Swan Song just incase they get cutesy and try and destroy something with some other instant. Not to mention all my 1/1 Human Soldiers created by Akroan Horse, those are all Pack Rats to. So
basically what i'm saying is, suck it mono black. Have a taste of your own medicine, even if it's a tiny one. This post brought to you by a proud R/G monster player.
So you're telling me I can exile my opponents cards forever if I Polymorphous Rush
my Brain Maggot
into something else and have it leave play? What good does that do me? It's a cute interaction, but my no means broken or busted. There's too many things that have to go right in order for this to work. Ideally it's a 2-3 card combo that doesn't do enough on its own to win you the game. I'd rather just have a Brain Maggot
and protect it with other things like counterspells or another one in hand.
May 30, 2014 4:33 a.m.
I suppose I should ask now rather than cause a scene or be caught unawares at my next standard tournament. What happens if a level one judge (without no higher or other judges present) rules during a tournament that causing Brain Maggot to become a copy of target creature will cause Brain Maggots leave the battlefield ability to trigger and I refute the judges claim by politely showing him printed material straight from the official rules?
Specifically:
A: Can the judge lawfully and immediately give me a warning or remove me from the tournament in reaction to my refuting his ruling?
B: Can the judge lawfully ban me from future tournaments on the spot as a result of my refuting his ruling?
C: Can the judge lawfully put something on my DCI record permanently such as a warning that will follow me around from store to store?
I have no doubt that the judge ruled so and I refuted his ruling that the judge in particular could tell me to leave the shop. I would expect but don't know that I have to comply or face charges just like a Wall-Mart employee of sufficient rank ordered me never to come in the store again. I say this because the judge I have in mind is an employee at the store and either is or will be a manager and even if his power is not sufficient based on whatever laws I am unawares of the actual Manager would take his side to save face for his employee because lets face it, I am just one of many MTG players that frequents the shop.
May 30, 2014 4:36 a.m.
Brain Maggot + Polymorphous Rush to exile things permanently... Yeah, that's really a huge combo there... I bet it's going to break Standard!
May 30, 2014 4:39 a.m.
TLDR Version:
Brain Maggot
on the field, his original cast and ETB triggers resolved. Polymorphous Rush
turns him into something else, he doesn't leave zones, his ETB trigger cannot resolve this turn since he is a copy of another creature. Later in the same turn Brain Maggot
dies and since he isn't really Brain Maggot
anymore those cards are exiled forever.
Yes I know it's a complex interaction requiring three cards minimum but since Polymorphous Rush
can target so many creatures for just U2 and I can turn all of my creatures into that it's likely to happen sometime unless your playing against a deck with a pitiful amount of creatures.
May 30, 2014 4:41 a.m.
kengiczar - You do know how Strive works right? Polymorphous Rush costs 2U for the first target and 1U for each additional target. So to turn 3 creatures into another creature you would need to pay 4UUU, 4 creatures is 5UUUU, and so on. It's going to be a HUGE mana sink to do what you want it to do. Also, if this DOES come up at an FNM and you show the printed text, just don't be a douche about it and everything should be fine.
May 30, 2014 4:44 a.m.
I'm not trying to win so much as I am trying to do the goofiest things possible. At the very least with all the mono black in my area that hasn't seen this trick before they will probably Thoughtseize an actual Monster or control spell like Cyclonic Rift or Cancel and use their Ultimate Betrayal for a fatty like Desecration Demon if they have used their discard against my instants. I realize this is not the greatest interaction but given that I'm not about to shell out the cash for my own Thoughtseize and I am working on a Strionic Resonator deck this is relevant for me.
May 30, 2014 4:45 a.m.
JWiley129 you're absolutely correct. I didn't realize that. I have been playing the black strive spell correctly but for some reason thought the word "target" and the word "choose" were in opposite places for Polymorphous Rush
! Thanks for pointing that out. > _ < On the flip side I can at least choose a creature that is hexproof the way it's written. Maybe I'll throw in some Realmwright
and go real crazy with the colors then.
May 30, 2014 4:50 a.m.
megawurmple says... #10
kengiczar If a judge ruled that Brian's LTB trigger would happen if targeted by Polymorphous Rush , that judge really needs to either learn how to play the damn game, or quit being a judge. That is potentially one of the easiest rulings ever: the card stays where it is, but becomes something different. It never leaves play. If a judge bans you or otherwise punishes you for trying to refute his shitty ruling, you can easily either show him the comprehensive rules, or complain and get the ban overturned.
May 30, 2014 6:03 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #11
This whole point is moot. None of it works.
Brain Maggot does not have an ETB trigger and an LTB trigger like Tidehollow Sculler does. Instead, Brain Maggot has an ETB trigger that creates an effect with a fixed duration. This is an important difference.
Because there is no LTB trigger on Brain Maggot , nothing triggers or goes on the stack to return the exiled card. It simply returns to its owner's hand immediately as soon as Brain Maggot leaves the battlefield. This happens even before state-based actions are done, and can happen in the middle of the resolution of a spell.
This happens whether or not Brain Maggot is still named Brain Maggot when it leaves the battlefield. Similar to Huntmaster of the Fells Flip and Delver of Secrets Flip , cards whose names change do not become different permanents. Their characteristics change, but they retain all information such as auras and +1/+1 counters. In the case of Brain Maggot becoming a copy of something else, it also retains its memory of the exiled card.
tldr: Even if Brain Maggot changes its name, the game still remembers that it exiled a card. The card still comes back if he goes away. This happens immediately and does not use the stack.
May 30, 2014 8:02 a.m.
I was gonna say, That doesn't work that way. His ETB only triggers once since he's already on the battlefield getting copied on the battlefield already doesn't trigger his ETB for each copy.
May 30, 2014 8:51 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #13
You are wrong kengiczar. Brain Maggot states that the card is "exiled until it leaves the battlefield" that's not a triggered ability printed on the card it's a duration for the ability, the ability which has already taken effect when the card is exiled.
Polymorphous Rush removes all his abilities, but the card is still Brain Maggot and once he leave's play that duration expires.
May 30, 2014 9:04 a.m.
but Brain Maggot isnt Brain Maggot anymore, when it becomes a copy its name, abilities, power, and toughness all are changed. when Brain Maggot dies it wont die Brain Maggot , it would die a Master of the Feast or whatever, brain maggot never will leave the battlefield
May 30, 2014 11:23 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
First, if you're going to try pulling any rules wizardry, you need to use the most recent version of the rules. You're quoting the October 2012 rules, which are long out of date. It doesn't appear to change anything in this situation, but be conscious of it.
Second, the LTB rule you quoted has nothing to do with this scenario. As others have pointed out, Brain Maggot doesn't have an LTB ability. It has an ETB ability that creates two one-shot effects, per its Gatherer rulings.
4/26/2014: Brain Maggots ability causes a zone change with a duration, a new style of ability thats somewhat reminiscent of older cards like Tidehollow Sculler. However, unlike Tidehollow Sculler, Brain Maggot has a single ability that creates two one-shot effects: one that exiles the nonland card when the ability resolves, and another that returns the exiled card to its owners hand immediately after Brain Maggot leaves the battlefield.
Also note
4/26/2014: In a multiplayer game, if Brain Maggots owner leaves the game, the exiled card will return to its owners hand. Because the one-shot effect that returns the card isnt an ability that goes on the stack, it wont cease to exist along with the leaving players spells and abilities on the stack.
There's also this Cranial Insertion post about Banisher Priest , which operates on the same principles that Brain Maggot does.
Returning the exiled creature is an effect that was already created back when the Priest's enter-the-battlefield ability resolved. Removing the ability that created this effect doesn't prevent it from happening when the Priest leaves the battlefield.
May 30, 2014 11:49 a.m.
@K1LR0Y It doesn't work that way. As the original poster pointed out, that when you Mass Polymorph a creature, it never leaves the battlefield. Therefore even though it's name and stats are changed, the game recognizes it as the same object it was before so when it leaves the battlefield the exiled card would return. The original poster has this interaction all wrong and couldn't be farther from the truth about how it works. Just about the only thing he said right was that when you use Mass Polymorph to make creature X a copy of creature Y then it doesn't leave the battlefield. And I'm pretty sure the only reason he got that right is because he copy and pasted the rule directly from the comprehensive rule book. Little did he know though, that rule actually proves him wrong more than it does anything else because like I pointed out to you, since it doesn't change zones the game recognizes it as the same object. I guess in his abundant overconfidence of being 100% sure he was right and everyone else would be wrong, he must have forgotten rule 706.11. which states "If an effect refers to a permanent by name, the effect still tracks that permanent even if it changes names or becomes a copy of something else." lol.
May 30, 2014 12:41 p.m.
@K1LR0Y...
While it is true that Brain Maggot (the card) will not leave the battlefield while named "Brian Maggot", it will not change the effect.
A card that refers to itself by name is simply that... "referring to itself". Any time a card mentions itself, you can also read the card as saying "this card"... so Brain Maggot can exile a card from your opponents hand until "this card" leaves play... regardless of what characteristics, including name, the card may have when it leaves play, it is still "that card".
May 30, 2014 12:42 p.m.
oops soooo totally meant to say Polymorphous Rush not Mass Polymorph
May 30, 2014 12:44 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #19
@K1LR0Y The card's name doesn't matter, when a card says "when brain maggot blah" it's saying when ME blah. Just because it's now copying another card's name, colour, casting cost and abilities doesn't mean it's not still itself. It's still the card that exiled that card from your opponent#s hand and when it leaves play, whatever it's calling itself is irrelevant, the card comes back.
May 30, 2014 12:46 p.m.
Ah I see an important point here. Brain Maggot
doesn't say "When brain maggot leaves the battlefield" but rather "Exile that cart until brain Maggot leaves the battlefield" which isn't a separate triggered ability. Can't believe I missed that.
May 30, 2014 1:19 p.m.
Do you all think it's worth it to play brain maggot assuming you can nix their only instant cast black spell turn 2 or 3? I'm starting to think the only real value might be forcing them to play a heroes downfall or other sorcery speed black spell before combat if they want their instant back. Even then they might draw into another one. The more I understand how Brain Maggot works the less potential it has.
May 30, 2014 1:52 p.m.
thanks guy for basically saying what Epochalyptik said, i got that it didnt work when he cleared it up.
May 30, 2014 2:01 p.m.
The ability on Brain Maggot no longer exists when it becomes a new creature, "leaves the battlefield" means it would have to change zones for this ability to cease. This means, if the polymorphed maggot leaves the battlefield, the exiled card will remain exiled. An ability cannot cease function if it does not exist
May 30, 2014 2:34 p.m.
Brain Maggot
is a good card, that interaction just doesn't work the way you thought. Brain Maggot
hits any non-land card. That means you can take their removal to protect your threats or you can take their threats that you can't deal with. Even if they do have a second piece of removal or draw into one, your making them spend resources and a turn in order to kill the Brain Maggot
. Typically decks function at their best when they can play the cards they want when they need to play them. Just making them have to respond to the Brain Maggot
can throw off the tempo of their deck and put them behind. It's not that the card doesn't have potential, I think your just underestimating it because you don't fully understand it.
May 30, 2014 3:14 p.m.
@K1LR0Y calm down on the sarcasm buddy. It's not like people read epoch's response and decided to reiterate what he said. When I replied to you epoch's post hadn't been sent yet, so while I was typing a response and doing other stuff epoch's posted. Common sense should tell you that there would be some other reason for the repetition. Then again I should have suspected you lacked when I read that other post I replied to.
@Malanade1 I have to assume you read the responses to this post before replying, I mean why would you jump into the middle of a conversation that had been going on for hours without any knowledge of what was being discussed. So my question is, how can you still believe that the card will be permanently exiled in this situation?? Not only have there been numerous people disputing your exact statement, but there have been comprehensive rules quoted along with quotes from rulings on The Gatherer providing factual evidence that what you just said is completely wrong.
You are right about one thing. An ability can't cease to function if it never existed in the first place. The problem with your statements, as it's been pointed out several times before, is that the ability has already resolved. There is only one triggered ability on Brain Maggot
. The one that triggers when it enters the battlefield. When he enters the battlefield his ability will trigger. When it resolves you will choose a card that will get exiled until the card that exiled it leaves play. That is the whole ability. You can't exile a card without creating that set duration also. So even if you Polymorphous Rush
him to make him a copy of something else it won't matter because his ETB trigger has already resolved and created that set duration. So whenever that card leaves play, the exiled card would return to it's owners hand. Regardless of what your calling Brain Maggot
when it died. The abilities that are on Fiend Hunter
that created the type of loophole you and the original poster are trying to use here is different than the ability of Brain Maggot
or Banisher Priest
. It was an unintended interaction and something wizards has actively tried to prevent from coming up again by changing how the ability is worded on similar cards that have been released since then. (i.e. Banisher Priest
and Brain Maggot
.
Probably the easiest way to tell that these two abilities don't function the same way even though they are essentially the same thing is the fact that they are worded completely different. Cards that function the same way will be worded the same way. That's how wizards creates consistency. The rules can be complicated as is to learn, imagine how much more difficult it would make the game if they had 10 different ways to phrase every ability. I mean could you imagine having a creature with flying in play and your opponent has a creature with "floats in the air"? Of course not. Everyone would assume "floats in the air" would mean flying but it would just be confusing to not refer to it as flying every time. Same principle as with Fiend Hunter and Brain Maggot . If the abilities on Fiend Hunter are what creates that loophole, then the fact that Brain Maggot is worded differently should tell you that it won't do the exact same thing.
May 30, 2014 5:18 p.m.
i get what your saying @abenz419, i just saw a bunch of people saying @K1LR0Y thatat doesnt work, @K1LR0Y it doesnt work that way, @K1LR0Y and so on so forth. that many people dont need to tell me im wrong when 2 people already have. and stuff like this has happened to me before, the first few times was "ok they all prob hadnt refreshed their computers and had no idea that all the other posts were there." now its like "really guys? i was wrong, so what, i dont need all of you telling me that after a few people already have."
May 30, 2014 8:43 p.m.
anyways lets just forget about it, whats done is done and we cleared up if the whole Brain Maggot thing worked or not.
May 30, 2014 8:47 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #29
Brain Maggot only lost the potential to be completely broken. It's still quite strong. Either way you come out ahead. Either you take the best card from their hand permanently, or they waste valuable removal on a 1/1 creature.
Cobthecobbler says... #2
Can we have a tl;dr on what you're trying to say?
Also please link cards
Brain Maggot , Polymorphous Rush
May 30, 2014 4:33 a.m.