Why doesn't Dismember care about statebased actions?
Asked by Kjartan 5 years ago
When a creature dies due to having 0 or less thoughness, it's due to statebased actions, right.
A Lightning Bolt won't kill a 2/3 Tarmogoyf with no instants in grave, so why can a card like Dismember, which also kills by lowering a creature's thoughness, kill a 3/4 goyf, with no instants in grave?
Lightning Bolt, like all other instants and sorceries has the implied text "Then it's put into its owner's graveyard" at the end (R. 304.2 and R. 307.2 respectively).
State-based actions are checked whenever a player gains priority (R. 704.3).
Players do not gain priority in the middle of a spell. So, looking at Lightning Bolt:
- Lightning Bolt deals the three damage to Tarmogoyf - it now has three damage marked on it.
- Lightning Bolt goes to the graveyard. This is still part of the spell's resolution, so no player has gained priority.
- There is now an instant in the graveyard, so Tarmogoyf is a 3/4.
- Lightning Bolt is finished resolving, and now a player gains priority.
Notice how, before state-based actions are checked, Tarmogoyf became a 3/4 - thus it will not die when state-based actions are checked, as it does not have enough damage counters.
Second point, Lightning Bolt does not kill by lowering a creature's toughness - it kills by dealing damage. Both will send the creature to the graveyard, but by different state-based actions.
Lightning Bolt kills by R. 704.6g - the total damage marked is greater than toughness and the creature is destroyed.
Dismember kills by R. 704.5f - a creature having 0 or less toughness, which puts the creature into its owner's graveyard.
This is a super important distinction, which is why I am calling it out. Notice how 704.5f does not "destroy" the creature - cards like Dismember can be used to remove indestructible creatures, while cards like Lightning Bolt can not.
July 17, 2018 10:03 a.m.
Thanks guys. I though negative toughness and damage killed at the same time.
July 17, 2018 12:54 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #4
I feel that this question is one of algebra and not MTG rules.
Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage. The Goyf has 3 toughness. Per the resolution of Blot it is put into a graveyard. By the time SBAs are checked the Goyf has 4 toughness and 3 damage marked on it, it isn't destroyed.
Dismember gives a creature -5 toughness. The Goyf has 4 toughness. Per the resolution of Dismember it is put into the graveyard. When SBAs are checked the Goyf has 5 toughness with -5 toughness, totaling 0 toughness. It is moved to its owner's graveyard.
Had the Goyf been a 4/5 to begin with, toughness equal to Dismember's debuff as was the case with the Bolt scenario, the result would be the same as it was with the Bolt. Dismember resolves, making the Goyf a 5/6 with -5/-5, a 0/1 that remains on the battlefield.
July 17, 2018 1 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #5
Damage and negative toughness do "kill" at the same time, they're both State Based Actions that happen whenever a player gains priority. The point of cdkime's citations is that they do so through different rules, not that one is "faster" than the other; damage "destroys" the creature while having 0 or less toughness moves it to the graveyard.
It's an important distinction to appreciate when interacting with certain other effects like regeneration or indestructible. It was probably in response to your original description that said Dismember "also" kills by lowering a creatures toughness, implying that Bolt lowered the targets toughness, which it doesn't.
July 17, 2018 1:08 p.m. Edited.
I see, I accidently linked the wrong card, sorry. Let's say Grasp of Darkness instead. My bad.
I know it doesn't "Literally" lower the creature's toughness, I just felt comparing them that way was the easiest way to explain my question. Thanks, though.
But if both things do kill due to statebased actions, then I'm kinda back to questioning why one kills goyf before it goes to the graveyard, and the other does not...
July 17, 2018 1:20 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
If the card was actually Grasp of Darkness, then the Tarmogoyf in your example lives. After Grasp resolves it will be a 0/1.
July 17, 2018 1:25 p.m.
To break it down as I did for Lightning Bolt:
- The 3/4 Tarmogoyf gets hit with -4/-4. It is now a -1/0. But Grasp of Darkness has not finished resolving. Therefore, state-based actions are not checked, as no players can gain priority in the middle of the spell's resolving.
- As the rules language says, Grasp of Darkness goes to the graveyard prior to any player gaining priority. Tarmogoyf recognizes Grasp of Darkness is in the graveyard. Now it would be a 4/5, but is reduced by -4/-4.
- At the time a player gains priority and state-based actions are checked, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1, as Rhadamanthus. State-based actions do not care that the creature had negative toughness in the past--they look at the situation as it stands at the time state-based actions are checked.
- The 3/4 Tarmogoyf gets hit with -5/-5. It is now a -2/-1. But Dismember state-based actions have not checked yet.
- Dismember goes to the graveyard. Tarmogoyf is now a 4/5 being reduced by -5/-5.
- At the time state-based actions check, it is a -1/0, and therefore dies due to having 0 toughness.
Note, both these spells and Lightning Bolt check at the same time. None "kill[] goyf before it goes to the graveyard".
Hope that helps clear things up some.
July 17, 2018 1:40 p.m.
Two people from I lgs "allegedly" watched a game where a high level judge explained to a player that some -X/-X card killed a goyf before it got to grow.
I really doubt they were lying. Doesn't seem like them.
Were the high level judge just wrong? Or is it some really weird rule interaction that non of us apparently know of?
After scouring the internet, I couldn't find anyhting about it. (Maybe they were just lying.)
But i'd really like to see rules that could, if nothing else, explain why that isn't the case. Just to be sure, and so I can avoid arguing with them if I ever got to play a goyf vs Bile Blight or something.
July 17, 2018 1:43 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #10
The key principle here is that all of these spells "kill" though game rules, not per instructions on the card. In Tarmogoyf's case it has a characteristic-defining ability that's relevant to those game rules because the spell's card must be placed in the graveyard as the final step of its resolution, and only then are SBAs checked.
If however we were dealing with Devour in Shadow Goyf is destroyed during the resolution of the spell before it hits the yard, and so a 2/3 Goyf with no instants in the graveyard is a 2/3 when it dies, and you lose 3 life to Devour in Shadow instead of 4.
I doubt anyone was lying, or that a judge would get this one wrong. More likely it was a misunderstanding born of a very specific scenario. Without details it's hard to say.
The best rules we can point to for understanding why this works the way it does is 704.3 and 604.1/604.3, the first already cited by cdkime. They say:
604.3 Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object’s characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box) or overrides information found elsewhere on that object. Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game.
704.3 Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
The 604s explain that Goyf's ability is instantaneous in the way it defines its power and toughness. There is no delay between the spell resolving and the Goyf's stats updating, no point at which the spell has "resolved" and Goyfs stats do not reflect the cards currently in the graveyard.
704.3 describes when SBAs are checked. This is when the relevant game rules would move the Goyf to the graveyard if those conditions are met. By the time the SBAs check the Goyf's toughness is high enough that no SBAs need to be taken.
July 17, 2018 2:15 p.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
Either the people who told you that story misunderstood what they were seeing or the judge got it wrong. Only a spell that specifically says "destroy" would actually kill Tarmogoyf before the spell goes to the graveyard and Goyf's P/T gets reevaluated.
Rhadamanthus says... #1
State based actions are checked right before each time a player gets priority. This means they aren't checked in the middle of a spell or ability resolving, but only after it's completely finished resolving.
In your first example: After Lightning Bolt resolves, the Tarmogoyf will be a 3/4 with 3 damage marked on it. This isn't enough damage to be lethal, so Tarmogoyf doesn't die.
In your second example: After Dismember resolves, the Tarmogoyf will be a -1/0. It's put into the graveyard as a state-based action.
Let me know if I didn't understand your question. I feel like I'm missing something.
July 17, 2018 9:41 a.m.