Fox Offering+Commander tax?
Asked by VampDemigod 3 years ago
Does commander tax in EDH count as part of the commander’s mana cost, or is it a separate cost? I know you can’t cast the commander without paying it, but you can use the commander’s abilities to cast it without paying tax.
This leads to my two questions: 1: does commander tax affect Patron of the Kitsune’s ability? For example, if I’ve cast Patron from the command zone twice already, and I activate Fox Offering, sacrificing Flourishing Fox, do I have to pay 4W or 8W?
Secondly, if I have a card on the battlefield that cares about the cmc of cards I cast, is commander tax part of that cmc? Let’s say Kiyomaro, First to Stand is my commander. If I have cast Kiyo once before from the Command Zone, is Kiyo’s CMC 7 or 5 while on the stack?
VampDemigod says... #2
So commander tax still applies to Fox Offering even though it’s an ability, not an alternate casting cost? I was under the impression that abilities didn’t get taxed by Commander Tax.
August 28, 2020 11:53 a.m.
Tylord2894 says... #3
The abilities that you are thinking of are probably those like Derevi, Empyrial Tactician and Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow. Both of these effects put their card onto the battlefield. Since this isn't a cast, the Command Tax doesn't apply. Fox Offering doesn't do this. Rather, any Offering ability just reduces the amount of mana that you have to pay.
The most important distinction here is that Offering applies when you cast your commander. Similarly, the Command Tax applies only when you cast your commander. So, both will apply. The same will go for commanders like Jodah, Archmage Eternal and other commanders that have alternative casting costs. While their ability lets you change what you have to pay, you are still casting them. That's the key detail.
August 28, 2020 1:31 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Since Patron of the Kitsune has a CMC greater than or equal to every other fox and they are all white this only applies to Vulpine Goliath, but it is nice to know how reductions in general interact with commander tax. Cost reductions can reduce the commander tax. Vulpine Goliath will reduce the cost of Patron of the Kitsune by ( for the generic mana portion, and another from because offering, unlike most reductions, applies the colored to generic). This means that the first time you cast Patron of the Kitsune from the command zone sacrificing Vulpine Goliath would reduce the cost to . The second time it would reduce it to . The third time it would reduce it to . And so on.
August 29, 2020 7:33 a.m.
In the future, please remember to hit the green "Mark as Answer" button to show your question has been resolved. Since this question has been answered for a number of days, I have gone ahead and marked an answer on your behalf.
September 4, 2020 11:02 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #6
Caerwyn Sorry. I exclusively use mobile (in browser), which doesn’t display the button until someone else marks an answer as accepted. I am working on putting together a report on it for the mobile bugs feed.
Tylord2894 says... Accepted answer #1
Commander tax is just like any other taxing effect. It does not affect the CMC of a spell nor does it bar you from casting a spell "without paying its mana cost".
When determining what you have to pay for a spell, there are four steps. First, determine the "base cost" of the spell by taking the printed cost or alternative cost, if applicable, and substituting any with the chosen value. Next, take the base cost of the spell and add any taxes, such as the Command tax but also effects like Sphere of Resistance. Then, subtract any discounts, such as Helm of Awakening and the Fox Offering effect of Patron of the Kitsune. Lastly, apply the effect of Trinisphere if it's out.
In short, the Command Tax is just like any other taxing effect. It does not change the CMC of a spell/permanent. One of the only times that a spell's CMC differs from what's printed on its card is when there is an in the mana cost.
Hope this helps!!
August 28, 2020 10:42 a.m.