Ezuri's predation + Divine visitation
Asked by griffstick 5 years ago
I have a token deck, (Selvala, Explored and Returned with tokens) and I have Divine Visitation in the deck and i was just curious about a card I wanted to add (maybe add) Ezuri's Predation. And I wanted to know how it works together.
So let's make a scenario.
4 player game I have Divine Visitation in play and it's my turn. My opponents combined have a total of 10 creatures in play. I untap for turn draw a card and its Ezuri's Predation. I tap out to cast it and here's where It gets fun, the card wants to make ten 4/4 green beasts. The card says, ,,PAY ATTENTION,,, the card says "each of those BEASTS fights a different one of those creatures". (those meaning my opponents). Ah ha but here's where it gets confusing. Divine Visitation says create a 4/4 flying vigilant angel instead, INSTEAD! So now I have 10 Serra Angel's but my question is? Do they still fight? Do... they... still... fight? BECAUSE THE CARDS ASKS TO HAVE BEASTS FIGHT BUT THEY ARE ANGELS, NOT BEASTS
griffstick says... #2
But its magic don't you have to take that word seriously the words on the card? And since it says beast then only beasts fight?
November 22, 2018 9:25 p.m.
griffstick says... #3
Ok so I pulled up the rullings for Divine Visitation and Ezuri's Predation
First Divine Visitation
10/5/2018
- The token’s characteristics are entirely replaced by a 4/4 white Angel creature token with flying and vigilance. It doesn’t have any abilities the token would have been created with. Anything else specified in the effect creating the token (such as tapped, attacking, “That token gains haste,” or “Exile that token at end of combat”) still applies
And second Ezuri's Predation
11/4/2015
- Players can’t cast spells or activate any abilities in between the Beasts entering the battlefield and fighting the other creatures. If the Beasts entering the battlefield cause any abilities to trigger, those abilities will be put onto the stack after Ezuri’s Predation is finished resolving.
So what can we determine from this?
November 22, 2018 9:58 p.m.
griffstick says... #4
It doesn't say anything about triggering before they enter, switch in this case Divine Visitation does. It also doesn't say anything about if the creature type would be changed
November 22, 2018 10 p.m.
griffstick says... #5
It sounds like to me that the triggered ability from divine visitation will be allowed to happen before the ruling that says that they will be put on the stack and resolve after.
So I think what happens is the beasts enter as Angel's instead and don't fight cause the card wants beasts to fight
November 22, 2018 10:04 p.m.
It says those beasts in reference to the tokens. If you control a Conspiracy naming demon and cast Ezuri's Predation, it would cause those demons to fight even though they aren't beasts. Divine Visitation is a bit different because it heavily modifies the tokens, but the result is the same, those angels will still do the fighting.
Also, you mention triggering. Divine Visitation does not have a triggered ability, it instead has a replacement effect which replaces a portion of Ezuri's Predation (making beasts with making angels), but allows the rest of the card (having those tokens fight) to resolve normally.
November 22, 2018 10:14 p.m.
griffstick says... #7
But the Oracle text of Ezuri's Predation still says "each one of those beasts" so if it did mean what you are saying it would be worded a lil different. Maybe something like each one of those tokens created fights. Or each token created this way fights
November 22, 2018 10:31 p.m.
I think he easiest way to think of it, which might help get past your mental block, is to apply the replacement effect to Ezuri's Predation’s full text, rather than just the “each of those beasts” text. With the replacement effect, it could be read as:
For each creature your opponents control, create a 4/4 White Angle creature token with flying and vigilance. Each of those Angels fights a different one of those creatures.
Small correction to Neotrup’s post, Conspiracy adds a creature type, not replaces it. The creatures would be Demon Beasts, not just Demons.
November 23, 2018 9:17 a.m. Edited.
Follow-up thought, you can’t say “each of those tokens” or “each of those creatures” because it could create a minor ambiguity - it could refer to the subject “for each creature your opponent controls” or the newly-minted beast tokens. Beasts is a bit more specific, so ensures clarity.
I am guessing that’s the reason behind the particular wording, and that knowledge might also help you understand why the card works as it does.
November 23, 2018 9:21 a.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
"Those Beasts" is just being used as a pronoun to refer to the Beast tokens created in the previous sentence so they can be distinguished from "those creatures", which refers to the creatures your opponents control. It doesn't carry any special rules meaning that requires the tokens to be Beasts in order to have an effect. Magic does have a template for specifying requirements like that - "...if [those objects] are still [quality]..." (and simliar constructions) - and it isn't being used here.
November 23, 2018 9:23 a.m.
cdkime, from Conspiracy's rulings:
Affected spells, cards, and creatures lose all of their other creature types. (2013-09-20)
So they do, in fact, become just Demons.
November 23, 2018 10:51 a.m.
Kogarashi - My mistake. The sad thing, I checked the rulings to be sure, and read “It does not replace any use of creature types in card text“ completely incorrectly. Apparently getting dragged to 6:00 a.m. Black Friday shopping after sampling far too much awful Soviet liquor yesterday is not conductive to reading comprehention. The lack of “in addition to its other types” should also have been a clue...
Apologies to Neotrup!
November 23, 2018 11:05 a.m.
griffstick says... #13
Thank you everyone. Please check out my token deck. It's my pride and joy. The second edh deck I ever built. It has evolved to be such a powerful token deck. Originally built to beat a thraximundar deck, that kept making me sac stuff. So I thought that the best way around that was to have tons of creatures to sac, and the plan worked great. But he then in return added destroy all plans and destroy all forest in his deck lol. Savage. Anyways check out my deck, it has been on tapped out for 4 yrs now, and it is an exact paper copy of my deck. Please feel free to comment, and make suggestions of what to change to the deck. Also of course upvotes are much appreciated. Once again thank you all for the ruling discussion. Link to my deck right here or go to my profile page.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
They still fight. When Ezuri's Predation says "each of those Beasts" it's just because 99.99% of the time, the creature tokens will still be Beasts when they enter the battlefield. It doesn't require them to be Beasts and it won't lose track of them if they aren't Beasts.
November 22, 2018 9:02 p.m.