Rulings on ETB effects
Asked by Staro 10 years ago
Ok I feel I have read through the whole Internet for the answer to this. I am wondering about cards like:
Restoration Angel
Cloudshift
Deadeye Navigator
The effect that exiles a card and the card returns to battlefield right away.
Scenario:
Opponent targets your Birds of Paradise with a Lightning Bolt.You Flash in your [[Restoration Angel in response to bounce your Birds of Paradise hoping to save it fron the Lightning Bolt.
So lets look at the stack in the order it will resolve(keep in mind all targeting exept Restoration Angel is allready done):
Restoration Angel resolves and exiles Birds of Paradise wich imediatly returns to the battlefield.
Lightning Bolt resolves and checks for its target(Birds of Paradise) wich is still there when it checks. So it kills the Birds of Paradise
So the main rule for this is:
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
the last of the seven exeptions are:
400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.
wouldnt this apply to my scenario? Because the Lightning Bolt is on the bottom of the stack, hence it is still being casted. So the Birds of Paradise will still be a target for the Lightning Bolt.
All input on this would be appreciated!
Cobthecobbler says... #2
It enters the battlefield before bolt resolves, but lightning bolt already lost its target.
Im too lazy to find rulings, plus Epochalyptik is going to be here anyway to move this to the BE.
Rulings questions go in the Q&A, and so on and so forth..
December 13, 2014 11:22 a.m.
filledelanuit says... #3
To be a little more specific.
Whenever an object changes zones it becomes a new object. So when you Cloudshift Birds of Paradise it becomes a new object when it enters the exile zone then becomes another new object when it re-enters the battlefield. Lightning Bolt has a target of a specific object on the battlefield. When bolt goes to resolve that object doesn't exist anymore and the spell will fizzle.
Think of it like this: If you had two birds and one your opponent tried to bolt one but you gave that one hexproof the bolt wouldn't redirect to the other birds.
Rules questions should be asked in the Q&A. Epochalyptik will be along shortly to move it to the BE.
December 13, 2014 11:29 a.m.
filledelanuit says... #4
Rule 400.7 is to make so Cloudshift actually works. It only matters if the object changed zone either during the casting of the spell or the resolving of the spell no while it is just sitting on the stack.
December 13, 2014 11:31 a.m.
Ok maybe I wasnt clear enough in my post. I am trying to get some feedback on the exeption(400.7g) from the rule. You saying "its like that and thats the way it is" means as much as horseshit to me. If your to lazy to find arguments then dont bother to comment on this thread please.
Does the exeption make the Birds of Paradise in my scenario a legal target? If not what scenario(s) would that exeption apply to?
December 13, 2014 11:32 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #6
The exceptions to rule 400.7 is for things such as Rancor, where it changes zones but the ability still needs to find the new object. These exceptions have no bearing unless the card states that it falls into the exception. So no, this exception does not affect you BoP and it would dodge the Lightning Bolt.
December 13, 2014 11:40 a.m.
Staro - No one above you said "It's like this and that's the way it is". And frankly that's a little aggressive to get with people trying to help you. Also what lemmingllama and lordoftheshadows said is correct. The game treats objects that leave and enter the battlefield as new objects. That's why if I Cloudshift an Acidic Slime I get to destroy another artifact/enchantment/land. In the scenario you described, the Lightning Bolt is targeting a Birds of Paradise, but when it gets flickered (the slang for Cloudshift type effects) it becomes a new Birds of Paradise and not the one you targeted with Lighting Bolt. And so Lighting Bolt will be countered via game rules.
December 13, 2014 11:48 a.m.
PaladinRyan says... #8
Everything has basically been said. But I will add a sort of play by play
1) Lightning Bolt is cast declaring Birds of Paradise as target2) Restoration Angel is cast in response also targeting Birds3) Resto resolves. Birds leaves the battlefield and enters as a "new" permanent4) Lightning Bolt would resolve but its previously declared target no longer exists so it fizzles aka is countered
The clause you pointed out does not apply here. While I see what you are getting at let me try to explain as I understand it. Your Lightning Bolt is not currently resolving. This clause allows effects such as flicker, effects such as Rancor's recursion aspect, etc to resolve all in one instance as the effect is in action already during the zone change whereas your Bolt is simply on the stack. When it goes to resolve the zone change has already occurred and its target is gone. I could be wrong but I am trying to explain it beyond just saying that this is what the judges say happens.
December 13, 2014 12:02 p.m.
Yes maybe I was a bit aggressive towards Cobthecobbler there, I appologize for that. I am quite new to the forum part of the site, and quite new to magic itself. So maybe I was a bit to frustrated...
But I cant get my head arround the last exeption from the rule. Rancor is covered by the fourth exeption(400.7d).
Let me write the seventh exeption the way I read it in my scenario:
400.7g A resolving Lightning Bolt can perform actions on Birds of Paradise that moved from one zone to another while Lightning Bolt was being cast, if that object moved to a public zone.
the reason I read it like this is because:Lightning Bolt in the scenario is a resolving spell or activated ability.Birds of Paradise is an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated
Is this not correct?
English is not my first language so maybe Im just translating something wrong from the rules since I seem to disagree with the world. Allthough I really hope im wrong, I dont want to ruin my own Restoration Angels :)
December 13, 2014 12:06 p.m.
PaladinRyan says... #10
The key word here is "resolving." When the flicker occurs it is on the stack. Not resolving. When it resolves the flicker has already occurred thus the clause does not cover it.
December 13, 2014 12:08 p.m.
400.7g is made so Otherworldly Journey works. This first flickers a card, then adds a +1/+1 counter. This is resolving, and therefore it treats the object it is cast on as the same object, and not a new one! :D
Hope that helped!
December 13, 2014 12:18 p.m.
Thanks guys, I get it now. I dont know why, but I was thinking a spell started to resolve as it went on the stack. Thanks for helping me understand :)
December 13, 2014 12:33 p.m.
What happens when a LEGENDARY creature is flickered? Does it enter as a new version of the same legendary?
December 13, 2014 4:13 p.m.
@greyninja Flickering a legendary creature is no different from flickering a regular creature. The returning card is a new permanent with no connection to its previous existence.
December 13, 2014 4:24 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #15
I only said what needed to be known. You really don't need to know how changing zones effect it because when it comes down to it, all that matters is that the bolt is not going to hit your BoP.
Also, I didn't take any offense. You can say whatever you want on the internet under anonymity, and at the end of the day, I don't care. I told you what happened and I know why it happened. In fact, I didn't even have to try and help you out in the first place.
Regardless, it's a common strategy and I've seen it over and over again, I just assumed you had more experience playing the game than you did, and didn't feel it necessary to go too far into detail.
December 13, 2014 6:39 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #16
It's good to see this was sorted out, but it doesn't look like the reason 400.7g is inapplicable here was actually explained correctly.
"Cast" means "announce, move to the stack, make decisions, pay costs". After a spell is cast it will stay on the stack until it starts to resolve, and players can make responses before then. "Resolve" means "follow all the instructions of the effect in order, move the spell to wherever it's supposed to go (usually the graveyard)".
Birds of Paradise did not change zones while Lightning Bolt was being cast. It moved after Bolt was cast but before it started to resolve. That's why 400.7g doesn't apply.
The Otherworldly Journey example given earlier also isn't quite right. The creature doesn't change zones while Journey is being cast, but while it's resolving. A better example is Rescue from the Underworld. The creature sacrificed to pay the additional cost of the spell moved to the graveyard while Rescue was being cast. 400.7g says that Rescue is allowed to affect that creature card as it resolves.
December 17, 2014 12:14 p.m.
PaladinRyan says... #17
I believe that was explained yes. I said it was on the stack bit not resolving, resolving being the key.and somebody else explained the Otherworldly Journey aspect :p
December 17, 2014 12:29 p.m.
Rhadamanthus is so right about this.
One thing that is then weird is, that Otherworldly Journey shouldn't be able to put a +1/+1 on the creature that it flickered, because it moved zones and became a new creature... Shouldn't there be a rule that said:
"400.7h A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was resolving or that ability was resolving, if that object moved to a public zone.
?
December 17, 2014 1:09 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #19
My point was that those previously given examples weren't correct explanations of 400.7g and why it doesn't apply here. Read the text of the rule carefully and you'll see what I mean.
400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.
December 17, 2014 1:10 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
"That card" in Otherworldly Journey's text is already referring to the new object in exile. If Journey said "that creature" (referring to the old object) then it wouldn't work properly.
December 17, 2014 1:15 p.m.
PaladinRyan says... #21
Valid point I suppose. Nobody quite had it completely correct, only pieces of it or partially correct explanations. Probably best the Q&A king come to set it completely straight haha
December 17, 2014 1:16 p.m.
Yea, I know that Otherworldly Journey doesn't go under this rule. But what I meant with my post is, that on a unrelated note, how is Otherworldly Journey working? I know that it has nothing to do with 400.7g.
I mean, when I flicker a card and it comes back, it should be a new card. How can Otherworldly Journey then find the creature, and put a +1/+1 counter on it?
December 17, 2014 1:16 p.m.
Oh, good. Don't bother answering my question. You already have.
December 17, 2014 1:17 p.m.
PaladinRyan says... #24
I actually understand this entire scenario a lot better now. Always nice to learn a little bit more of the rules behind how we play :D
December 17, 2014 1:21 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #25
I just wanted to make sure everything was straight so that the lesson learned could be properly ported over to similar situations covered by the same rules.
Yeah, NorthernRaven, the finer details behind all that stuff is that "card" is only ever used to refer to an object not on the stack or battlefield. "Spell" means something on the stack, and for permanents on the battlefield the text of the effect will just name the type of permanent ("creature", "artifact", etc.). Some older cards don't follow all of the current templating rules, so if an older card seems weird (example: Infernal Tribute) check Gatherer for its current Oracle text just to make sure (now it says "nontoken permanent").
Cobthecobbler says... #1
Lightning bolt can no longer target BoP because it was removed from the battlefield, thus lightning bolt has no target and fizzles.
That's a simple answer, but pretty much what happens.
December 13, 2014 11:19 a.m.