Do tokens get shuffled back in to the library?
Asked by vomel 13 years ago
I saw Innistrad's spoilers. I suddenly got the idea of using back-to-the-brink on my deck to use graveyard creatures. But looking at Mirror-Mad Phantasm , I stopped and asked, would it be possible to shuffle it's token copy to the library? If it doesn't,when you don't have any other Mirror-Mad Phantasm then you'll certainly end up Milling yourself which will give you the win condition if you have Laboratory Maniac in play. Just a thought.
Arachnarchist says... #2
The token would cease to exist after being shuffled back into your library. And as a result everything you mentioned would follow. If you have no other Mirror-Mad Phantasm you would mill your entire deck.
September 23, 2011 5:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
110.5f A token that's phased out, or that's in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
You would still shuffle it in, but it would be removed from your library as a state-based action.
September 23, 2011 5:54 p.m.
goober1223 says... #4
Arachnarchist does seem to be right, but what about the "If that player does" clause? You didn't actually shuffle it into your library. As soon as it left play and before it got shuffled into your library it ceased its existence.
I would need a more comprehensive, cited ruling to be sure.
September 23, 2011 5:56 p.m.
goober1223 says... #5
And then Epochalyptik showed up and grants my wish... :-)
September 23, 2011 5:57 p.m.
goober1223 says... #6
You wouldn't win automatically, though. Mirror-Mad Phantasm only causes cards to be revealed and removed. Still a nice use of the card.
September 23, 2011 5:59 p.m.
mozerdozer says... #7
Epoch may actually be wrong this time; it is hard to tell since he left his answer open ended.
110.5f A token that's phased out, or that's in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
This is checked as a SBA and thus does not happen during the resolution of the Phantasm's ability. Thus you will shuffle the token into your library and reveal cards until you find a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm. Because SBA effects have not been checked yet; you will find the token assuming you find it before any other phantasms. Thus this combo will not work.
A combo that does work is use the following: Clone . Phyrexian Metamorph , and Phantasmal Image . These creatures immediately lose their name once not on the battlefield and thus there will be no cards named Mirror-Mad Phantasm in your library if they have all been removed. Thus any of these cards will allow there to be no cards name "Mirror-mad Phantasm"in your library.
September 23, 2011 6:30 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #8
You're right to say that the token is still in your library while Mirror-Mad Phantasm 's ability is resolving, but you will not find the token when you start revealing cards. Tokens are different from cards, and a token can never be a card. Because the phantasm ability says "a card named...", it will ignore the token. The following quote is from the current distributed version of the Comprehensive Rules (it will be edited in the next edition to account for double-faced cards):
108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a "card," it means only a Magic card. This includes both traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches (8.8 cm) and have a "Deckmaster" back, and nontraditional Magic cards, which are oversized and have different backs. Tokens aren't considered cardseven a card that represents a token isn't considered a card for rules purposes.
September 23, 2011 6:51 p.m.
ThiagoMaia says... #9
Wow, this is really awesome, I have though of Condemn Mirror-Mad Phantasm in response of it's ability to mill the deck out, but the "if you do" part of the ability kept me from doing it... I'm so gonna build this deck...
September 23, 2011 7:13 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
That still doesn't work... If you Condemn the Phantasm, then you can't shuffle it in when its ability starts resolving, because it's gone. That makes the "if you do" check false and the rest of the ability gets skipped.
September 23, 2011 7:25 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #11
I think Rhadamanthus is right. A card is a card and not a token. And while you would not win during the ability, on your next draw you would. Which is why I would recommend using some kind of instant speed drawing as well.
September 23, 2011 10:46 p.m.
mozerdozer says... #12
Best bet is using a cloned card either in the token or another creature. Unfortunately, you still have to take care of the rest of your Phantasms in your deck, ie Surgical Extraction and such, or only have one in your deck and tutor it, which is more or less impossible in standard besides Diabolic Tutor /Rune-Scarred Demon .
September 24, 2011 12:08 a.m.
Great! Thanks guys for all of your feedbacks. Now, I can't choose which answer is most acceptable.
About the "If that player does" phrase, i'm still confused. Would the shuffling still trigger after the token ceases to exist?
September 25, 2011 1:49 a.m.
I think I'm clear with the "If that player does" trigger. It would still resolve. But i still don't win the game with Laboratory Maniac since it's not a "Draw a card" trigger. The next time I draw a card would, I suppose.
September 25, 2011 1:56 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
State-based actions (which are what remove tokens from non-battlefield zones) do not check during the resolution of a spell or ability. Spells/abilities resolve completely before any state-based checks are made and any player receives priority again.
Thus, the shuffle effect will still happen, but because the token is not a card, it cannot satisfy the "until a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed" clause of Mirror-Mad Phantasm 's ability. The owner of that library will continue to reveal cards until an actual card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed or until the library is milled.
108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a "card," it means only a Magic card. This includes both traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches (8.8 cm) and have a "Deckmaster" back, and nontraditional Magic cards, which are oversized and have different backs. Tokens aren't considered cardseven a card that represents a token isn't considered a card for rules purposes.
September 25, 2011 1:57 a.m.
enigmadreaming says... #16
What about 201.4B?
"201.4b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name."
This seems to indicate that the Clones, etc, would NOT work, since the Clone, in copying Mirror-Mad Phantasm, would now read "Clone's owner shuffles it...until a card named Clone..."
I am not sure how this works with tokens, since they aren't a card in the first place.
October 5, 2011 11:53 p.m.
enigmadreaming says... #17
Edit: Nevermind, closer reading of the copy section clearly shows that the copy gains the name of the target.
But at what point does it lose the name? Obviously as you try to shuffle the Phantasmal Image copy of the Mirror-Mad Phantasm into your library, it is a Mirror-Mad, but once you are searching for it in the library, it isn't anymore. When does that transition take place, exactly?
October 6, 2011 12:09 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
The name of a card is different from the name it may have taken on when it was a permanent on the battlefield. A Clone may be a permanent named Mirror-Mad Phantasm , but the card name in any other zone is still Clone. Therefore, that card will not be a Mirror-Mad Phantasm card if it is revealed from the library.
October 6, 2011 12:41 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
Another point about 201.4b is that it says "refers to that object by name". When Mirror-Mad Phantasm says "a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm", it's not referring to itself, it's referring to some other game object, so that instance of the card-name in the ability doesn't get changed.
Here's an example to illustrate: a Necrotic Ooze who sees a Phantasm in a graveyard will gain an ability that reads: "Necrotic Ooze's owner shuffles it into his or her library. If that player does, he or she reveals cards from the top of that library until a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed. That player puts that card onto the battlefield and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard."
October 6, 2011 10:02 a.m.
enigmadreaming says... #21
Yes, I see that I misunderstood the wording on that point last night. So the Necrotic Ooze would definitely work, because of the "a card named" wording. My question now lies with the Clone . Does the physical card Clone actually get shuffled into the library because of the Mirror-Mad Phantasm effect? So, does it remain the copy "long enough" to make it back into the deck, or is it rejected at some point because it is not actually the right card?
Is this the difference in the token example, in that the token is never a card in the legal sense, and so cannot actually get shuffled?
October 6, 2011 1:55 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
The token does get shuffled in, which has been established.
The Clone copy of Mirror-Mad Phantasm will get shuffled back in, but its card name is Clone while it's in the library.
October 6, 2011 2 p.m.
About Necrotic Ooze , I don't think the ability will be used since it states that Mirror-Mad Phantasm 's owner and not Necrotic Ooze's owner. Does the wording change when Necrotic Ooze gains the ability?
October 6, 2011 2:10 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Necrotic Ooze has the following ability if Mirror-Mad Phantasm is in a graveyard:
1U: Necrotic Ooze's owner shuffles it into his or her library. If that player does, he or she reveals cards from the top of that library until a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed. The player puts that card onto the battlefield and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.
vomel says... #1
Correction: Back from the Brink
September 23, 2011 5:26 p.m.