Can you cast Dissolve without a legal target?
Asked by Fizzz 9 years ago
Reid Duke just cast a Dissolve on after Anthony Rofino (during the SCGlive quarter finals) cast a Mistcutter Hydra .
Can Reid cast the counterspell just to scry? Or must he target his own Dissolve and still be able to scry?
He did Scry.
Oh ok that starts to make sense... what I still do not understand is how you can cast the counter on something that you cannot counter.
Would that work the same way as casting a Naturalize on a Darksteel Ingot ?
July 6, 2014 12:17 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #3
in the oracle text of Dissolve it says "counter target spell.Scry 1" so it has 2 parts to the card their has to be a spell being cast for you to resolve the counter spell but since Mistcutter Hydra "can't be countered" the effect of countering the target is illegal it goes onto the next part of Dissolve where it says Scry 1 this effect is seperated by the period in the oracle text. Dissolve has to resolve even though Mistcutter Hydra is an illegal target that is why he could still scry 1.
July 6, 2014 12:19 p.m.
Absinthman says... #4
Yes it would indeed work the same way. Nothing is preventing you from casting Naturalize on Darksteel Ingot . It doesn't have hexproof or shroud which would actually prevent you from doing so. Similarly to the above case, if the spell in question does something else besides what it can't do, the rest will happen. For example, if instead of Naturalize , you used Artifact Mutation , the Ingot will still survive, but you will get three 1/1 tokens.
July 6, 2014 12:23 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #5
no Naturalize on Darksteel Ingot isn't on the stack so its still a legal target but the effect of Naturalize destroying the ingot is still legal just after naturalize resolves the ingot won't be destroyed because it is indestructible its a legal target it just wont be destroyed with Dissolve and Mistcutter Hydra they are on the stack so mistcutter isn't a permanent yet so its effect of having protection from blue isn't in affect. it can still be targeted it just wont be countered when it resolves
July 6, 2014 12:27 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #6
Absinthman is correct you would get the saprolings because the period sets a new part of the spell it can destroy something and once that ability is done (even if the target is indestructible) it will move onto the next part of the spell where you get 3 1/1 saprolings even if the target wasn't destroyed as long as the target is still legal the spell will resolve
July 6, 2014 12:30 p.m.
Absinthman says... #7
@OrzhovExtort: I'm not sure that punctuation has anything to do with that. It would work even if those two parts were connected with "and".
July 6, 2014 12:35 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #8
yes but just like Whip of Erebos (sorry not best example couldnt think of any better) it has the cost of the ability then you tap the whip and the colon seperates the cost from the effect punctuation can make a difference especially in Dissolve and Mistcutter Hydra
July 6, 2014 12:38 p.m.
Absinthman says... #9
Yes, punctuation is important in terms of separating costs and effects, or modes of a spell, but I don't see why it would make a difference in Dissolve . Even if Dissolve read "Counter target spell, then scry 1" or even "Counter target spell and scry 1", you would still scry.
July 6, 2014 12:43 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #10
if it said and the effect would all happen at once you would counter and scry the punctuation dosent make any REAL BIG defference it is put there i believe just to make it easier for players to understand the "then scry 1" isnt any different than the period in dissolve its just giving steps on how the spell should resolve
July 6, 2014 12:47 p.m.
mtghypatia says... #11
That means that you can't use Redirect on a counterspell unless there is another spell you can counter?
July 6, 2014 12:51 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #12
yes pviollier redirect states that there has to be a new target for the spell that Redirect is targeting so if you used Redirect on Dissolve there has to be 2 other spells on the stack one that dissolve was originally going to counter, then you redirect it to another spell that has to be on the stack for redirect to target. this means there would have to be 4 spell on the stack and redirect would have to be the last one on the stack
July 6, 2014 12:55 p.m.
Absinthman says... #13
@OrzhovExtort: I see, yes, it is there to make things easier. I was under the impression that you meant to say that the punctuation actually made it work this way.
@pviollier: This a bit of a different case. When you cast Redirect
in such situation, you can change the counterspell's target to itself, because it is already on the stact. When counterspells are cast, they can't target themselves because they don't exist on the stack yet, but at the time you cast Redirect
, the counterspell is already there and is a legal target for itself.
July 6, 2014 12:57 p.m.
OrzhovExtort says... #14
lol sorry Absinthman i can be VERY confusing sometimes haha
July 6, 2014 12:59 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
First, OrzhovExtort, the last line of post #3 is wrong. Mistcutter Hydra is NOT an illegal target for Dissolve . See Absinthman's first post. Also, when a spell has no remaining legal targets, it is countered by game rules as it would resolve.
Punctuation makes no rules difference in the case of Dissolve . The only time it does is when it is used to separate an activation cost from the effect of an activated ability, because that indicates what must happen immediately and what happens only on resolution.
Additionally, post #12 is wrong. Nowhere does Redirect state that there has to be another legal target for the spell. You're allowed to keep the target the same, and Redirect doesn't even check what targets are available for the spell.
July 6, 2014 2 p.m.
Absinthman says... #16
@Epochalyptik: Thanks for backing me up. However, your post about Redirect seems somewhat off. I think you might have confused it with Twincast or something like that.
July 6, 2014 2:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
I mistakenly mentioned copies, but the idea itself is correct. There does not need to be another legal target for the target spell. You can choose not to change the targets.
8/15/2010: You may change any number of the targets, including all of them or none of them. If, for one of the targets, you can't choose a new legal target, then it remains unchanged (even if the current target is illegal).
July 6, 2014 2:11 p.m.
mtghypatia says... #18
Absinthman that means that if I cast, for example, Wrath of God and someone uses Muddle the Mixture to counter it, I can use Redirect to counter Muddle the Mixture with itself, and Wrath of God would ultimately resolve?
July 6, 2014 2:37 p.m.
Absinthman says... #19
Yes. When Redirect resolves, it lets you select a new target for it, which you can choose from among all available targets (all instant or sorcery spells on the stack in this case). Because Muddle the Mixture is still on the stack and it is an instant, it itself can become its new target.
July 6, 2014 2:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
That is incorrect.
A spell on the stack is an illegal target for itself. You can never target a spell with itself.
In this case, you can choose Redirect as the new target of Muddle the Mixture . Remember that Redirect is still on the stack while it is resolving, so it will be a legal choice. Then, when Muddle the Mixture tries to resolve, it will be countered by the game rules for no longer having a legal target (Muddle the Mixture left the stack during the last stage of its resolution).
July 6, 2014 2:58 p.m.
Absinthman says... #22
I guess that's a precaution Wizards put in place to prevent time paradoxes and the universe from falling apart.
July 6, 2014 3:09 p.m.
mtghypatia says... #23
Epochalyptik either way, in my example, that means that Muddle the Mixture would not target Wrath of God and that all creatures would be destroyed, right?
July 6, 2014 4:19 p.m.
Absinthman says... #24
@pviollier: Yes. Even though my original answer was incorrect in its details, the outcome is the same. You can save your Wrath of God from being countered using Redirect .
Absinthman says... Accepted answer #1
There ar two parts to my answer.
1. No, you can't cast Dissolve or any other counterspell for that matter without having legal targets for it.
2. That being said, Mistcutter Hydra is a legal target for Dissolve . Protection from blue is not effective until the Hydra becomes a permanent, so on the stack, you can target it. And "can't be countered" doesn't prohibit you from targeting it with counterspells. You can target Mistcutter Hydra with a counterspell, it just won't counter it when it resolves. It will however do whatever else it does (e.g. scry in this case).
July 6, 2014 12:14 p.m.