[Community Discussion]: Modern Chat
Modern forum
Posted on April 25, 2015, 8:42 p.m. by Epochalyptik
This thread is dedicated entirely to Modern. Feel free to post your thoughts on the meta, ideas for your next decklist, and just chat generally about the format!
Of course, you can always start a new thread if you're interested in discussing one particular aspect of the format; this thread should be used for the quick thoughts and informal questions about the format.
This discussion will be ongoing; you are free to post here as long as you're on topic.
This is NOT a deck help thread. Please do not spam deck help requests.
EpicFreddi says... #2
Grixis was awesome with probe. You could Kiln Fiend and win with total information on T2 with Counterspell backup. But now it's "meh" at best.
March 14, 2017 4:37 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #3
Grixis was awesome with probe. You could Kiln Fiend and win with total information on T2 with Counterspell backup. But now it's "meh" at best.
March 14, 2017 4:37 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #4
Grixis Death's shadow. It played blue for Stubborn-Denial (which was awesome with Kilnfiend, since it enabled Ferocious) and card selection and red for Kilnfiend. It made a few online top8's and won a few minor tournaments, but it was ultimately too midrangy and lost to the full-aggro-landfall counterpart. Now without probe it just died.
March 14, 2017 8:14 a.m.
I know this is the wrong format, but since it shares some of the same cards I figured I'd post it here. I'm working on a fully white bordered legacy burn list. Not done yet, but if anyone's interested in seeing the progress I've been making, here's the Reddit post
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/5zmx8d/white_bordered_legacy_burn/
March 15, 2017 8:08 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #6
PV says fairies is a thing (yaaaaay)
I kinda want to build Sphinx's Rev/Elspeth, Suns Champion WU control and have it be viable.
March 18, 2017 8:44 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #7
Watched a few MM17 box openings on youtube this morning. Sheesh this set is harsh. I saw one guy open an entire box with no fetches and pretty much no value, then then next box was filled with mostly garbage as well but then he pulled a Snappy & foil Goyf in the same pack.
March 20, 2017 12:04 p.m.
EpicFreddi says... #9
We opened a box. We had a Voice, one Fetch and a goyf - the rest was under 3$ a piece. We barely made half of the money back. And the draft was also shit. I knew I should've stoped opening boosters when i opened a foil force+karakas. My luck has left me. :c
March 20, 2017 12:16 p.m.
EverythingIsK while I completely disagree about a decks tier in a format having anything to do with its popularity, I think that is a very interesting list as it definitely helps to figure out what decks need sideboard hate at the moment.
A tier is how good a deck is in a meta, not how much of that deck is currently floating around. Correlation does not imply causation, a basic rule of statistics. Good decks tend to be popular, but just because a deck is popular doesn't mean it's good.
March 20, 2017 1:10 p.m.
EverythingIsK says... #11
@kyuuri117 I see your point about calling it a tier list. The title is more to draw in the attention because people go nuts over the words "tier list". It's definitely more a list of decks to consider sideboarding against than an actual best to worst deck chart.
March 20, 2017 1:31 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #12
The tiered system as it applies to MTG is very much the percentage of the prevalence of each deck at competitive levels in the metagame.
They are the only statistics that are available. The popularity of decks placing at the competitive level does indeed reflect the quality of those decks, or at the very least the decisions being made about what decks are best by the best players of the game. This is what defines the popular wisdom of what the "good" decks are in any given format, at any given time, in any given metagame.
March 20, 2017 2:26 p.m. Edited.
Wait, what are you even talking about, kyuuri117? Tiers are entirely determined by popularity, it's the only thing we can independently measure. Those are in turn influenced by competitive potential, which is why they're somewhat reflective of what decks are good right now. This post reeks of ignorance of how these sort of analyses are conducted.
March 20, 2017 2:31 p.m.
SilverIronMan says... #14
One incredibly important thing to keep in mind when considering tiers is the difficulty of playing the deck. The floor for playing a deck, like for an example burn, is much higher than a deck like Knightfall. This statement doesn't imply that the ceiling for the deck is higher, rather that the floor is much higher. This will naturally lead the deck with the higher floor to a higher position on the tier chart regardless of if it is indeed better.
I bring this up because I play a lot of Knightfall, a deck with an incredibly low floor, and, across ~4 metas, I've taken the deck to ~90% win rate across ~100 matches. Of course, this can further be seen with skilled players, like Kelvin Chew, who take the deck to top 16 finishes at GPs.
March 20, 2017 3:15 p.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #15
EpicFreddi- I'm glad I avoided opening a box of MM17, tempting though it was to buy at $190 on release day. I went to a draft and opened a pack with a foil Scalding Tarn
and a Blood Moon, and the shop was cool enough to let me buy that pack to replace it with another random one for the draft. Even better, the replacement pack had a Snapcaster Mage, so I made out like a bandit :D
However at the end of the night, the guy who opened up the goyf traded it into the store for 5 more packs, and opened absolute garbage, so I was able to see variance at work in the booster lottery.
March 20, 2017 3:34 p.m.
tlhunter07 says... #16
I saw a shiny LOTV in the box I got for my birthday, so I was happiness on a stick
March 20, 2017 3:58 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #17
SilverIronMan This is quite true. I constantly see people incorrectly pilot decks like Abzan and Death's Shadow. Just cause a deck is Tier'd well.
March 20, 2017 4:07 p.m.
tlhunter07 says... #19
Yeah. A friend offered me $180 and I was like... Mabye....
March 20, 2017 4:30 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #20
Opened a Foil Mesa, another Mesa, Tarn, Catacombs, Ranger of Eos, and Lily.
March 20, 2017 5:21 p.m.
tlhunter07 says... #21
Foil fetch seems nice.
On another note, would you guys suggest playing Jeskai Geist over Jeskai Nahiri or Kiki-Control?
March 20, 2017 5:25 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #22
Jeskai Nahiri is the best of those decks, so I would go with that one.
March 20, 2017 5:32 p.m.
There are "tiers of popularity", and "tiers of power level". They aren't the same thing, and when you solely say "this deck is tier 1", you are referring to its power level. If you want to specify that you are speaking of "this deck is tier one in popularity in this format", you need to specify that, as the first assumption one thinks of when you say "tier" is the actual power level of the deck on the format.
March 20, 2017 8:05 p.m. Edited.
Hell, maybe I've got it reversed and most people assume you're talking deck popularity when you say tier. But no one I've ever spoken to in magic discussion has ever used the word tier to describe a decks popularity in the format.
March 20, 2017 8:13 p.m. Edited.
EverythingIsK says... #25
I'll reiterate that the title "tier list" is there partially to get clicks and discussion. Clearly it's working wonders.
March 20, 2017 8:13 p.m.
Lol, well, regardless of the title I do like the actual list. Very useful.
March 20, 2017 8:14 p.m.
I will add that the listings of decks are purely based on actual results, not just popularity. Nobody cares if people are playing a deck if there aren't enough people actually doing well with it. So while the list does in fact measure popularity, that popularity is backed up by results and likely has a correlation with power level in the current meta, better known as positioning.
That said, glad you like the list :D
March 20, 2017 10:02 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #28
Deck popularity at the competitive levels is the correlation to the power levels of decks. When people are discussing "tiers" that is what they are talking about. This is why decks shift back and forth with the meta game.
March 21, 2017 11:49 a.m.
Consider birthing pod and twin. Both were tier one both in power level as well as popularity. Both where arguably too good for the format, and as such, both were banned.
Now consider Amulet Bloom. By your rankings, Amulet Bloom would be tier 3 at best, if we go by popularity. The deck was super hard to pilot, and people didn't want to invest in cards that were only good for one deck. Despite being less than 1% of the meta, the deck was one of the two best decks in the meta, besides twin, and it wasn't even close. If you were trying to spike a tournament, and you weren't using one of those two decks, you were doing something wrong.
There is a difference between popularity and power level, and even though power level isn't really quantifiably measurable, I think it's wrong to assume they're the same.
March 21, 2017 1:23 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #30
kyuuri117 The tiered system has always been measured by deck popularity in competitive events. There are no other "power level" tiers other than in the subjective imaginations of players.
When players are speaking of Tier 1 through Tier 3 decks at a competitive level, this is what is being discussed.
March 21, 2017 1:25 p.m. Edited.
Ohthenoises says... #31
This is why a lot of bannings have occurred
Cheap decks are easy to build, and if they are decently competitive then many people will flock to said deck. With the sheer number of people flocking to a deck it overrepresents and floods the meta regardless of its true power level.
Couple this with the way that people tend to complain lately about a rising star deck even if it's not as good as its representation and you get bad blood and bannings.
March 21, 2017 1:27 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #32
Anyone have thoughts on the Esper death's shadow lists going around? Orzhov Charm seems SUPER good
March 21, 2017 5:43 p.m.
Serra_Sentinel says... #33
Card is insane on paper: fades exile removal by bouncing your Death's Shadow, gets your life total lower while simultaneously removing threats, AND recurs your Shadow. One of the only times I've seen all of the modes be extremely relevant on a charm.
March 21, 2017 9:13 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #34
Problem is losing out on Goyf.
Kinda want to try it without Red.
Would snap off playing the Esper version if I didn't just buy 4 FS Goyfs.
March 22, 2017 7:52 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #36
Meh, i liked grixis with Postmortem Lunge more, but that's just me. I always prefere combo over midrange.
March 22, 2017 8:26 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #37
Idk, Orzhov Charm represents so much more flexibility.
Makes me wonder if Mardu would be good though, W for charm, and R for battlerage, idk, meh
March 22, 2017 9:59 a.m. Edited.
Mardu is an interesting thought, but without Goyf you need a back up beater. A new home for kiln fiend perhaps?
March 22, 2017 10:08 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #39
Rofl! Death's shadow kiln fiend, what will they cook up next?
Or just put DS and orzhov charm in a nahiri Mardu deck and have Emrakul as your backup plan :')
March 22, 2017 10:36 a.m. Edited.
Ohthenoises says... #41
That would actually be absolutely terrifying.
Mardu Nahiri with a DS package. You try and kill them before they can ult Nahiri and Emrakul you and they just drop a couple of 7/7 DS and look at you like "wut now"
There's still the fetch, shock, TS plan too.
March 22, 2017 10:47 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #42
Mardu Death's Shadow: T2 Bob, Upkeep, Flip Emrakul, Take 15, play Death's Shadow, go.
March 22, 2017 11:05 a.m.
Serra_Sentinel says... #44
Odds are: you fetch/shocked at some point for the T2 Bob, so, wouldn't Bolt be a huge liability in this case?
March 22, 2017 11:23 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #45
I like the idea, but i feel like the deck is a little bit too good at killing itself. But it would give me a way to play the worst manland ever - R/B. W/B is kinda contra-productive for the deck.
March 22, 2017 11:37 a.m.
Guys check my deck out bladestorm
Need some professional opinions on wether it could put up a fight if I went to a FNM modern event, I know Its not the most OP deck ever but just wanna know wether you guys think it could do well? I have a solid gameplan just dont wanna get spanked by everyone lol
March 23, 2017 10:55 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #48
Anyone here play Skred? I have 3 slots in my SB that need to be filled and was wondering if people had some ideas.
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March 24, 2017 12:07 a.m.
EverythingIsK says... #49
@Ohthenoises Skred is my jam, been playing it for nearly 4 years now. However, I'm putting the deck on a shelf for now, as the deck is having issues with the bigger threats that come down before skred is big enough to 141. Having to 241 yourself for creatures that are far cheaper or recurable than your removal is painful for me to think that the deck is not giving enough to still be the Tier 1 Menace it once was.
As for your sideboard, I might suggest a 4th Molten Rain and move 1 Anger of the Gods over to the sideboard and +1 another one for your 15th slot, and put another Roast in the main.
March 24, 2017 12:47 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #50
Roast does a lot of work 1:1ing those big threats you talked about.
I have to keep the 3 angers main. In my personal meta it's too good.
tlhunter07 says... #1
It's all good. Nice list!
March 13, 2017 6:53 p.m.