Mark Rosewater's Statements About Enchantment Destruction/Sacrificing in Black
General forum
Posted on May 30, 2025, 10:52 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
In these two posts, Mark Rosewater spoke of how black is able to interact with enchantments, and I have no problem with black having some ability to destroy enchantments, but Rosewater stated that black's ability to destroy enchantments would always be inferior to those of green and white, and Feed the Swarm certainly meets that criteria, but I feel that Withering Torment is too powerful for a mono-black card, since it is an instant and can destroy its own controller's enchantments, when Rosewater previously stated that black was not allowed to destroy or sacrifice its own enchantments, to require players to be more strategic in dealing with the drawbacks of "deal with the devil" enchantments that are a major part of black's identity, which Devouring Sugarmaw can do, so it is clear that the people at WotC are changing their minds about how black can interact with enchantments, but I hope that black does not intrude too severely on white and green's ability to destroy or otherwise remove enchantments.
What does everyone else say, on this subject? Do you agree with Mark Rosewater's opinions on how black is able to interact with enchantments? I certainly am interested to hear your thoughts, about this matter.
How do you feel about Taken by Nightmares? It exiles, offers a scry effect, and costs only 4 mana compared to Shatter the Oath.
May 31, 2025 2:04 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #4
Bookrook, Taken by Nightmares cannot destroy or otherwise remove enchantments, so I have no problem, with that card.
SaberTech, your last point is actually a very good one, because that is a very interesting question to ask, and I suppose that it is one that we should debate; as long as black's ability to sacrifice or destroy enchantments does not intrude upon white and green's ability to do so, I shall not be bothered by it. I would prefer cards such as Mire in Misery or Extract the Truth over Feed the Swarm or Withering Torment, since those cards allow the caster's opponent to choose what enchantment they sacrifice, rather than allowing the caster to choose it, which means that the caster needs to play it very strategically, to produce the best result, from it.
May 31, 2025 5:35 p.m.
I initially thought that it was weird that WotC decided that black should be the tertiary colour for being able to deal with enchantments because I thought that blue was in that position with theft effects. After thinking about it for a second though, I remembered that black always had a way of dealing with enchantments through discard effects. Black's limit was that it had to deal with enchantments before they hit the board with cards like Thoughtseize and Duress, it's just that those cards can hit so many other targets beyond enchantments that it slipped my mind they they counted as black enchantment removal (more like proactive counterspells).
It has been a part of black's mechanics that it has been able to infringe on the other colours' mechanical spaces a bit as long as additional costs in the form of life or sacrificed creatures are paid. I think that's why I'm ok with targeted enchantment removal cards like Feed the Swarm. The spell is sorcery speed and saps the caster's life to give black a 2 mana spell that deals with enchantments. Compare that to cards like Thraben Charm and Heritage Reclamation, which give more options with no downside while being instants, and I think that even with targeted enchantment removal it's still pretty clear that black is third rate in providing enchantment removal options.
Again though, Withering Torment is kind of pushing it. Maybe black shouldn't be allowed access to instant speed enchantment removal without having it jump through hoops like finding a way to reanimate a creature like Ghastly Death Tyrant at instant speed?
May 31, 2025 8:36 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #7
SaberTech, I agree with your last assertion, in that black should be allowed to destroy enchantments only if such destruction has significant drawbacks and/or is strongly conditional.
June 1, 2025 5:52 p.m.
White and green still have the most, the most common, and the most mana-efficient enchantment removal.
In Standard right now, white has fifteen cards that destroy or exile enchantments specifically (as opposed to "target nonland permanent"), and they start at 1 mana commons. Green has a lot more (I counted thirty before stopping), mostly as modal spells or creatures, mostly starting at two mana, with a lot of commons.
Black has five. Only Feed the Swarm is common or under 3 mana; the other four are rarer or higher mana value.
So I don't think black is stepping on white or green's toes at all. White and green each get multiple 1-2 mana common enchantment removers every set, while black gets maybe one at a higher rarity and mana cost. It's still a recent decision, so whatever's happening now might not be happening in five years, but I don't see black competing with white or green here at all. It's likely that Withering Torment is the ceiling, not the standard.
June 1, 2025 8:39 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #9
legendofa, that is good to know, so I shall hope that WotC does not make black's ability to destroy enchantments any more powerful than what it currently is, and, out of curiosity, do the other four black cards that can destroy enchantments have drawbacks, of some form?
June 2, 2025 8:37 p.m.
Shatter the Oath and Early Winter are 5 mana, not a drawback but inefficient enchantment removal. Vile Mutilator is 7 mana plus a sacrifice. Withering Torment's been covered pretty well in this thread.
I also didn't really count Braids, Arisen Nightmare, which needs a sacrifice and let's the opponent choose the outcome.
June 2, 2025 9:04 p.m.
You can also see how inefficiency was build into Early Winter's enchantment removal option in comparison to Shatter the Oath. Early Winter is instant speed and exiles but the opponent gets to choose which of their enchantments they will exile. That's a potential pattern that WotC could follow going forward; if black gets instant speed enchantment removal then it would have to be limited to an edict effect instead of direct targeting. It kind of gives black this vibe to its enchantment removal where it isn't good at it so if it has to try to do it quickly it's sloppy in its execution.
Black has to be aggressive with its enchantment removal. It doesn't get the luxury to sit back and wait to see how the game develops. It either gets ahead of the game and forces the opponent to discard their enchantments or it has to clear an enchantment right away before the opponents can give themselves options against edict effects. As for black's targeted enchantment removal that costs life, black needs to use it before the opponent's board pressure makes paying that life too steep of a cost.
SaberTech says... #2
I have mixed feelings on how WotC is approaching giving enchantment removal to black. I enjoy playing black so when Feed the Swarm was printed I was pretty excited to have that sort of option for enchantment removal, and the life loss aspect of the card made sense to me because enchantment removal was something that black was bad at so it should have a pretty high cost to it either in terms of mana or life.
Black edict effects to get rid of enchantments like on Extract the Truth make sense to me too because they aren't always a reliable method of removing what you really want to removal, emphasizing black's lack of skill in dealing with enchantments.
I do agree that Withering Torment is a bit too efficient for what I personally think black should be able to do to remove enchantments though. The three mana to cast it would normally put it in the "meh" tier for removal, but it being an instant on top of also having the option to kill a creature instead starts to tiptoe across the line for me. Sure, you also lose 2 life to the spell, but I think that's still too light of a cost for black to get rid of an enchantment.
Maybe if Withering Torment was worded more like this I would consider it more in line with what I think that black should be able to do:
Choose one:
I think that rewording gives the card enough of its own pros and cons in comparison to Feed the Swarm that it can stand as its own variation while staying within the same power range. I also think that it should be standard for black's targeted enchantment removal to cost you life equal to the enchantment's casting cost unless the removal spell costs at least five mana to cast like Shatter the Oath.
I'm not fully decided on if it's bad that black has ways to get rid of its own Demonic Pact type enchantments. Black is more than capable of being able to kill its own creatures that might have detrimental effects, so is it too out of character that it can destroy its own problematic enchantments too?
May 31, 2025 3:05 a.m.