wait why would the partner have to be tymna specifically? What does she ad or is it just for the four colors? Unless im reading it wrong wouldnt she only be able to draw three cards in a standard four persona game? Deal damage to three seperate opponents, pay three life, draw three cards.

Although Lilbrudder highlights pretty much only negatives and is ignoring the good parts about Azami, he's right on the money. Having played Azami/Arcanis decks for roughly 3 years, I can say that Azami's pretty steadily secured to Tier 2.

TheDevicer: For the record I like Azami and think she is a great general. I was only so harsh due to the bar for tier 1 being so high. If I were describing her for tier 2 inclusion, I would be much more positive.

Yeah, I'm another Azami player and I tend to agree with that as well. She just doesn't have the tools to race the T1 decks. Dramatic Scepter (or Dramatic Sigil) is a good combo and focusing on that does help the deck but it's not enough for T1 by any stretch.

trorax I'm also a paper player. Never got into mtgo. The interface isn't very good and it lacks the social interaction that I like from playing in person. I get why people play online though it's definitely cheaper. I only own one truly cedh worthy deck out of my several because the staples are so expensive.

As another Azami player I find her to be VERY resilient but most of the combos with her are all mana intensive making her slower than others.

My only nitpick to what Lilbrudder said is #3, you don't need Azami in play 99% of the time mainly due to to density of mana rocks the chances of having 3 non-land mana is astronomical.

I almost ALWAYS have some combination that nets 3 total.

I've been able to set off Dramatic Scepter as early as turn 3 on multiple occasions, but doing it that quickly does require a pretty good opening hand. Getting either the rocks or the combo isn't super difficult but I've had trouble getting everything I need consistently within those first few turns. It's much more realistic to assemble everything by turn 6, which is nowhere near fast enough.

why does everyone here play azami???? lol. sereiously though, without the amassment of tutors and ramp that bug shells offer she is a bit slow/unreliable. also having 2uuu as a casting cost slows her down a bit, and with early had disruption could leave her much more behind, since people can remove relevant rocks to accelerate her (however this is unlikely, as thoughtsieze and friends have gone down in popularity, afaict)

Lilbrudder Thanks that was very helpful!

trorax, No, there's nothing specific about Tymna. It just that you want WBUG to support Thrasios, and I find her to be better than Ravos for a tier 1 deck. Having a Phyrexian Arena in the command zone is much better than having a Palace Siege, even if you won't play either most games.

Thats what i thought, thank you for the clarification.

Azami can be built on budget, is a classic commander, has a unique ability, and can be built to fit varying metas and power levels. I think she stands as a pretty common entry point into cedh for many people. Oh, and she's fun and lets you play lots of cool blue cards. Cedh is filled with blue players anyway.

I've been playing a lot of Breya lately. Granted, it's against my friend, who being a guy with good intentions, doesn't optimize his decks well. However, since he often builds non-interactive decks, it lets me see Breya's goldfish potential.

I built Breya as Doomsday, with Worldgorger backup. I basically built Zur, but took out some enchantments and added artifact removal, Gamble, and rituals. It usually wins on turn 4-5, but I can get it to win turn 3 if I mull aggressively. However, this isn't as consistent, and often has me ending up mulling to 4 to try to find a piece of ramp.

Anyway, I think Breya is pretty good. Worldgorger combo is risky, as they can stack a removal spell to permanently exile all your permanents, but I see her like Tasigur - a wincon when you have infinite colored mana, can be played late-game (often out of desperation, so you have a way to kill Labman or something), but is probably just played for the colors. I don't think that she can move to tier 1 just yet, I'd prefer that she stay down in tier 2 until people get more testing and an actual list. I'll try to get a list up when I get home.

TL;DR: Breya should be in tier 2.

I don't think that the earliest a deck can go off is what we want to use to judge its place in the list. A lot of decks can go off early, but that doesn't mean they always do. Forgive my use of Azami as an example (it's what I know best) but with a god hand, you can win on turn 1 while holding extra cards for protection. That doesn't make her good enough for T1, though.

Generally, it's not the fastest win that a deck can achieve, but the most consistent win a deck can achieve that we want to consider (I think).

I don't think they're determining Tier on just what turn they can win but what turn they can win CONSISTENTLY through lots of playtesting.

Speed is definitely a factor but it's also consistency to get there.

It's an average turn win that is usually gaged but some archetypes take a bit to win typically. Stax and others usually take a bit longer so it's hard to gauge those all on a "win by X turn" scale.

Leinahtan: I have found Lion's Eye Diamond + Auriok Salvagers to be her best combo, with George as a solid backup. The Breya list I have been building with mtgThaen can goldfish turn 2 or 3 wins with some regularity and often has more than enough combo protection to ensure turn 4-6 wins. She has unbelievably efficient Doomsday and Intuition piles and her combos are synergistic, compact, and mana efficient. She can win on turn one with about 6 or 7 different card combinations. The riskiness of her combos may keep her out of tier 1, but she is easily one of the fastest combo generals in the format.

Lilbrudder: Wow, I hadn't even considered Bomberman. That's actually amazing for Breya. Time to edit my build!

NarejEDOk so you said that Future sight needs to be dropped becasue it is too expensive. But in a tier 1 deck, with 15plus mana rocks, it is super easy to drop the 3 card combo turn 3. Mind over matter is an instant win 90% of the time you cast it. And I am very confused on why you think tendrils is worse than flux. My arguement is for one, you have to cast half the amount of spells to do the same damage, and tendrils gives you a net gain of life, and you can take out a whole board at once. Flux only takes out one player. Flux is easier to hate on, It has to hit the field and you have to get 50 life to use it. Tendrils can be countered and all the storm stacks still go off, most likely still netting you a kill. If you are removing these 5 cards, you are removing 3 win conditions, 1 mana rock and 1 draw spell. In Jeleva every card is in there for a reason. So if you are adding in green for Yidris, can 5 cards give you 3 win cons, a mana rock and a draw spell? MoM, ToA, and FS are all used in wincons that you get to use quite often. So you would drop 5 cards, to add in a color, what the heck would you add that would make it worth it?

@dalinius97: Aetherflux Reservoir wins at a storm count of 15 or lower-- a very reasonable number. Tendrils of Agony wins at a storm count of 60 or lower-- a number that's basically unattainable unless you've got an infinite loop going or you get Mind's Desire off twice. Every competitive Jeleva pilot I've talked to that has tested Aetherflux say they prefer it over Tendrils.

If tendrils took so much to kill. How did grixis storm win so consistently before reservoir?

Grixis Storm's main gameplan was always Lab Man kills; Tendrils/Grapeshot were its backup plans.

That said, I don't like Reservoir nearly as much as Tendrils. Not only is it more vulnerable to removal, but "needing a storm count of 15" is a little disingenuous, because that assumes it's been on the table since the beginning of the turn. If you cast it as your ~15th spell, you need to storm up 8 more spells after burning 4 mana on it; not impossible, but harder. It also has less synergy than the aforementioned Tendrils/Grapeshot plan, both with each other and cards such as PiF and Remand. Also, if Reservoir gets removed after your Lab Man gets removed, you actually lose, whereas the deck has a number of ways to keep going if someone takes out your storm spell.

As for the Yidris discussion, I really don't like the concept of revolving the deck around getting a hit in and then using your regular gameplan as a backup plan; I much prefer the deck to have Storm as its #1 goal, and the general as a backup plan. It's generally much easier for most decks to deal with your creature than the storm combo, the storm combo's much more resilient across multiple turns, and it's a harder plan to backup into if your main gameplan is hitting with Yidris. I think Yidris is pretty good, and potentially better than Jeleva as your primary backup plan (along with giving access to Sylvan Library/Regrowth); however, I think revolving your deck around casting him T2-T3 is getting your priorities backwards. There's few ways to do so conveniently due to his restrictive cost and your high Island count for High Tide, and things like mana dorks don't really have a place in the deck (green should only be run for the couple cards that are absolutely gamebreaking).

I don't like generals starting in T1 on set release; there's SO much hype at set release that placing generals before testing just feels very wrong to me. Most of it's pure theorycrafting at this point.

I agree with Lilbrudder on Breya; she's fantastic, and priority order 1. Bomberman 2. WGD is correct as well. The Altar/KCI combos are fine for more casual games, but they're slow and clunky when you're talking CEDH decks. If you have to pick one, I also agree with Displacer > Deathmantle. Displacer's surprisingly a decent card, stopping random value creatures from getting free hits, as well as completely shutting down backup plans like Jeleva and Yidris out of Storm. Additionally, as mentioned, Displacer completely avoids GY interaction, something that both of your other primary combos rely on completely.

I also agree with Lilbrudder and Sleazebag on Thrasios. The fact that people are sleeping on the fact that he's largely a better Tasigur, and even has his Partners as backup plans.

Also, when are Kaalia and Titania getting bumped? They're looking worse and worse (relatively speaking) with each new Commander that comes out. I don't even like Melek there, as Mizzix is a lot better at Storm because of his high mana cost. He's so much more clunky than his T2 UR counterparts.

Lilbrudder, have a list for Breya? Been brewing a bit with her myself and looking for some inspiration. :)

Thank you for the explanation. I definitely agree that tier two needs some housecleaning.

Tolluf: Here you go. The primer is still a ways a way from completion. Double Trouble

On the topic of Breya,i've been thinking of 1. Bomberman 2. WGD as stated above, but was wonmdering if there was a need to fit in a third combo? Potentially something like labman with doomsday since doomsday is already in the deck and i pile such as Predict -> Laboratory Maniac -> Gitaxian Probe -> Lion's Eye Diamond -> Yawgmoth's Will...no it doesnt have to be this exact pile just throwing an example.