What happens when Blood Moon and Realmwright are in play?
Asked by Lotex 12 years ago
Do basic lands affected by Realmwright count as nonbasic lands which in turn are affected by Blood Moon?
Technically Realmwright turns all lands you control into the chosen type in addition to their other types. Lands which were basic lands prior to this effect still count as basic lands.
March 3, 2013 7:47 p.m.
Thanks guys, lets see if i got this right. So if i i control an island and Windswept Heath, cast Realmwright, choose forest and an opponent controls Blood Moon, my island is an island/forrest which counts as basic land and produces U/G and my Windswept Heath is a mountain/forest which is still a nonbasic land and produces R/G?
March 3, 2013 8:01 p.m.
If Blood Moon was on the battlefield before Realmwright, then yes, your Windswept Heath would be a Mountain Forest.
If Blood Moon were to enter the battlefield after Realmwright, then Windswept Heath (along with any other nonbasic lands) would be a Mountain (and not Forest, or whatever type chosen for Realmwright).
March 3, 2013 8:13 p.m.
Yes, however the Windswept Heath would lose its sacrifice ability of course.
March 3, 2013 8:15 p.m.
Timekeeper says... #6
Yes and no.
To clarify the original question, Basic and Nonbasic are supertypes, and plains, mountain, island, etc. are all subtypes. Realmwright and Blood Moon each affect only subtypes, not supertypes. So yes, an island in play with a Realmwright (forest chosen) will be a basic island forest that produces either U or G.
However, Windswept Heath cannot produce mana on its own. Rather (and you'll see this if you glance at its effect one more time) it is sacrificed and then it gives you the one-time ability to search your deck for either a forest or a plains and put that into play. The resulting forest or plains will typically be a basic land (i.e. forest), and thus it will be unaffected by Blood Moon. However, it may rarely be something like Temple Garden which has a supertype of Nonbasic and a subtype of Forest Plains. Under Blood Moon, Temple Garden will become a Nonbasic Forest Plains Mountain that can produce G, W, or R.
I hope this helps.
March 3, 2013 8:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #7
Realmwright only adds an additional basic land type. It doesn't cause any lands to become nonbasic or basic.
Note that these effects will be applied in timestamp order. If Blood Moon enters the battlefield before Realmwright does, nonbasic lands you control will be Mountains with an additional basic land type from Realmwright. If Realmwright enters the battlefield before Blood Moon does, Realmwright's effect on nonbasic lands will be overwritten because Blood Moon does not say "in addition to its other types."
March 3, 2013 8:20 p.m.
That is incorrect.
If Blood Moon is in play, then Windswept Heath will be a Land - Mountain with only the ability to "tap, add R." It will not have the ability to sacrifice itself to find a Forest or Plains land.
If Blood Moon is in play, then Temple Garden will be a Land - Mountain with only the ability to "tap, add R." It will not be a Forest or a Plains, and it can not tap for either W or G.
March 3, 2013 8:22 p.m.
To further clarify mafteechr's explanation, Blood Moon states "Nonbasic lands are Mountains". This effect overwrites any prior land type or ability which that land had, unlike effects like Realmwright which also indicates that the land is the chosen type in addition to the land's other types.
March 3, 2013 8:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Also, nonbasic is not a supertype. A land can either have or not have the supertype basic.
March 3, 2013 8:33 p.m.
This talk about types got me thinking. I might go a little off topic here but Blood Moon seems to be more complicated as i thought. As far as i gathered it replaces subtypes like plains or island, while not affecting supertypes like basic or nonbasic. So, it does also turn snowcovered moutain and Great Furnace into ordinairy moutains,which are neither snow covered nor artifacts, doesn't it? I never thought a card with four words of rule text could turn out to be so weird. I can understand why they didn't reprint it for quite a while. Imagine this in the current standart format. People would go nuts by the dozen.
March 3, 2013 8:43 p.m.
Snow-Covered Mountain actually is a basic land, as shown by "Basic Snow Land - Mountain". Great Furnace would be turned into an ordinary mountain by Blood Moon.
March 3, 2013 8:46 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
Again, nonbasic is not a supertype.
Blood Moon does not change supertypes. It only changes land types. That said, Snow-Covered Mountain is a basic land, so it won't be affected anyway. A Frost Marsh will become a Snow Land - Mountain.
12/1/2004: Non-basic lands that are turned into Mountains with Blood Moon are still non-basic. Blood Moon does nothing to change the land's Supertype.
March 3, 2013 8:54 p.m.
Ah, ok. Thank you very much. I am deeply sorry, if i start going on everybodies nerves, but one more thing came to my mind. If Blood Moon enters the battlefield, do all legendary lands in play (if there are more then one in play) get destroyed? I think the should, since according to the argumentation above they would all be legendary lands with the same english name.
March 3, 2013 8:56 p.m.
Blood Moon changes the subtype to Mountain, not the name. The legendary lands are not destroyed.
March 3, 2013 8:58 p.m.
This thread made me realize that the supertype of basic lands - Mountain, Plains, etc. - inherently determines part of the card's rules text and properties, similar to Legend and Wall back when they were also supertypes (and Defender didn't exist).
Maybe Wizards should change that, and clarify what being a Mountain actually means.
March 3, 2013 9:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
The basic land types - Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest - are subtypes. They are not supertypes. Basic is a supertype, but a basic land type is a subtype.
Wizards does clarify what it means. The rules explicitly state that a basic land type confers to a permanent the ability to tap for the mana associated with that land type.
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If anobject uses the words "basic land type," it's referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability "T: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool," even if the text box doesn't actually contain that text or the object has no text box. For Plains, [mana symbol] is W; for Islands, U; for Swamps, B; for Mountains, R; and for Forests, G. See rule 107.4a. Also see rule 605, "Mana Abilities."
March 3, 2013 9:23 p.m.
Wasn't the trouble with legend and wall that they were not supertypes, but creature types? That could've caused a whole lot of shenanigas with spells that changed types of permanents and thus inelegant wording regarding these effects was pretty common. Btw, I think walls got a keyword via defender and legendary creatures got nothing of the sort because the powers that be wanted to be sure that effects of playing a legendary permanent couldn't somehow be suspect to Stifle.That kind of hardcoding stuff regarding a hand full of cards in the rules is pretty inconsistent, imho. But on the other hand magic is a complex game and i have no idea how to do it better. Besides if i played a whole evening without at least one opportunity to argue about the rules or listen to other people argue, it would be a little less entertaining.
March 3, 2013 9:46 p.m.
The thing with legendary lands is Blood Moon would give them the subtype of mountain. If someone controls a Tolarian Academy and someone controls an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, their actual names won't change to Mountain.
March 3, 2013 10:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
Legendary is a supertype. Wall is a creature type (subtype).
March 3, 2013 10:15 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #23
Not to be a wet blanket, but Lotex, if you've gotten what you needed from this thread, you should choose an answer and put it to rest.
March 3, 2013 11:59 p.m.
Defender is a static ability that renders a creature unable to attack. The keyword was introduced as a replacement of the baggage that the creature type Wall carried. It was introduced with Champions of Kamigawa and was retroactively added to all Walls.
As for legendary creatures, I believe the wording change was done to allow the replacement creature subtypes such as Human to take effect. For example, Braids, Cabal Minion's information on Gatherer now reads "Legendary Creature - Human Minion".
March 4, 2013 12:03 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #25
Legendary was made more to just make the rules regarding them cleaner. If you have a "legend rule" that wants to refer to legendary permanents, if you have Legend as a subtype, it opens up several cans of worms. Changelings, for instance, all immediately become subject to the legend rule, breaking both flavor and mechanics. You suddenly have to make legend into a subtype for all the other types of permanents, since there's artifact and enchantment legends. For creatures that can gain subtypes, being able to suddenly gain "legend" makes certain things difficult. It creates flavor problems as well, since subtypes are typically races and/or classes, and "legend" doesn't make any sense as a race or a class.
So they made the Legendary supertype so that it could be cleanly referenced by the rules and easily given to anything that needed to be legendary without creating all sorts of problems.
March 4, 2013 12:20 a.m.
CamperCarl00 says... #26
Isn't Realmwright a static effect? If I chose Swamp with Realmwright, even if Blood Moon enters the field afterwards and changes my Watery Grave into a Mountain, Realmwright will still look at it after Blood Moon has resolved and say "hey, it's a 'Land - Mountain' so it's gonna get Swamp as well." It's no different than a new land entering the battlefield after Realmwright has already hit the field. This is due to the fact that Blood Moon doesn't affect the supertype of the land, and therefore is still affected by Realmwright.
March 4, 2013 11:35 a.m.
Realmwright's ability is timestamped when it enters the battlefield, as is Blood Moon's. If Realmwright is on the battlefield and turning all lands into Forests in addition to their other types, nonbasic lands will retain their current names and abilities as well as gain the subtype of Forest along with the "T: Add G to your mana pool" that goes with it.
If Blood Moon then enters the battlefield afterward, its effect upon resolving will turn all current nonbasic lands that are Forests in addition to their other types into Mountains, period. If Blood Moon is on the battlefield prior to Realmwright entering the battlefield, Realmwright will then give all basic lands as well as the nonbasic lands the chosen basic land subtype in addition to those nonbasic lands being Mountains. This is also explained in Epochalyptik's answer above.
March 4, 2013 12:38 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
Both Realmwright and Blood Moon have static abilities. These abilities apply in the same layer, so their timestamp order determines which effect is applied first.
Timekeeper says... #1
No, basic lands become the chosen basic type in addition to their current type, but they do not become nonbasic.
March 3, 2013 7:31 p.m.