Timestamps & Layers: What are they?
Asked by Jay 11 years ago
I see these terms come up occasionally in rules-ier discussions, but frankly don't know what they are and how they work. Generally speaking, I have a pretty good rules understanding and would love to learn more. If anybody can give me a rundown of what these are, how they work, and maybe some examples, that would be awesome. I'm the go-to rules guy in my group, so maybe this can help in the future.
Thanks!
-Jay
Timestamps are basically the order in which things entered the battlefield or were cast. Knowing the timestamp order for things is often needed when you're trying to understand the interaction between multiple effects which apply in the same layer.
Layers are the way various characteristic defining and modifying abilities apply, that is to say, in which order they apply so you can stack them properly.
There are seven layers for applying such effects:
1/ Copy Effects Copy Enchantment
2/ Control-changing effects Confiscate
3/ Text-changing effects Mind Bend
4/ Type changing effects Conspiracy
5/ Color changing effects Moonlace
6/ Ability adding or removing effects Humble
7/ A) Effects from Power/Toughness effecting CDAs Maro
7/ B) Power/Toughness setting CDAs Lignify
7/ C) Power/Toughness changing effects that don't set Giant Growth
7/ D) Power/Toughness changes from counters Feral Hydra
7/ E) Power/Toughness switching Inside Out
So basically, you apply effects in order of those layers, and when there's more than one thing in the same layer, you apply them in timestamp order, newest last.
So if there were both Fear on a creature (Applied in layer 6, adding an ability to something) and Humility in play (Also applied in layer 6, as an ability removing effect) you'd need to know their timestamp order.
If Humilty were oldest, and Fear were newer, you'd apply humility (losing all abilities) and then apply Fear (giving it fear)
In the other order, Fear as oldest (giving it fear) and then Humility (taking it away) you'd be left with no fear on the creature.
November 12, 2013 10:49 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... #3
If you want to chat more about it, I'm on skype (tekkie89). I prefer non forum chat for things like layers.
November 12, 2013 10:50 a.m.
I'm not the best at properly describing most of this stuff but here is an article from WOTC explaining it.
An example of when timestamps would apply would be having Recycle and Reliquary Tower in play at the same time. The both alter your maximum hand size, but how they do so depends on which order they came into play. You apply their affects in the order they hit play.
A.) You play Reliquary Tower , giving you no maximum hand size. Then you play Recycle . Recycle will override the Reliquary Tower and reduce your maximum hand size to 2.
B.) You play Recycle , reducing your maximum hand size to 2. Then you play Reliquary Tower . Reliquary Tower will override the hand size restriction of the Recycle and give you no maximum hand size.
November 12, 2013 10:53 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
Timestamps and Layers are the two central concepts used for figuring out how continuous effects interact with one another.
To determine an object's characteristics, you start with what's printed on the card and start applying relevant effects in order of the layers:
- Layer 1 is copy effects
- Layer 2 is control-changing effects
- Layer 3 is text-changing effects
- Layer 4 is type-changing effects
- Layer 5 is color-changing effects
- Layer 6 is ability adding/removing effects
- Layer 7 is P/T-altering effects and has sublayers: a) Characteristic-defining abilities. b) P/T set to a specific number. c) Other altering effects not setting to a specific number. d) Counters. e) P/T switching effects.
If multiple continuous effects would apply in the same layer, you apply them in timestamp order. This means the oldest effect is applied first, then the next oldest, and so on up to the newest effect.
It's possible for multiple continuous effects in a single layer to share a dependency. One effect is dependent on another if the other changes the text/existence of the first and either neither or both are from characteristic-defining abilities. If so, you apply the "independent" effect first and then the dependent one. If a dependency relationship forms a "loop", then you just go back to timestamps.
Section 613 of the Comprehensive Rules has all the detailed information about this.
November 12, 2013 11:06 a.m.
All this talk of layers arouses this L2 judge.
I've given a seminar on layers, and would be happy to help, if wanted.
Sam_I_am says... #1
The following article has all you need to know
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a
To summarize, layers and timestamp order determine the order in which effects are applied to cards
The layers take precedence, The first layer is applied first, and the rest are applied on top of that.
For things that are within the same layer, timestamp order is applied. the earliest effect to be played is applied first, and the latest effect is applied on top.
November 12, 2013 10:49 a.m.