How does The Scarab God interact with creatures that Level Up and change their Power/Toughness?
Asked by Yesterday 6 years ago
The Scarab God uses its activated ability to exile a Hada Spy Patrol, so a black 4/4 zombie token enters the battlefield with the Level Up ability. If you level it up, does it turn into a 2/2 black zombie that can't be blocked?
you'd be much better off using Invisible Stalker over Hada Spy Patrol.
June 27, 2017 1:49 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #3
I'm fairly certain it stays a 4/4. For the same reason a Quicksilver Gargantuan copying a Tarmogoyf stays a 7/7.
Levelers are weird though, so I'm not 100% sure on this one. Can anyone else confirm?
June 27, 2017 3:21 p.m.
brokendwarf says... #4
Effects that set a leveler's power or toughness to a specific value, including the effects from a level symbol's ability, apply in timestamp order. The timestamp of each level symbol's ability is the same as the timestamp of the leveler itself, regardless of when the most recent level counter was put on it. For example, say Coralhelm Commander is on the battlefield, then Godhead of Awe, which says "Other creatures are 1/1,". After the second level counter is put on Coralhelm Commander, it will be 1/1 (not 3/3) and have flying, because Godhead of Awe's ability applies last. (If Godhead of Awe entered the battlefield before Coralhelm Commander, on the other hand, then the Commander's ability would apply last and it would be 3/3.)
June 27, 2017 3:26 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #5
Right, but this is creating a token with its power set to 4/4, which timestamp comes first?
June 27, 2017 3:31 p.m.
The reason it's a 2/2 has to do with the rules on layers of interacting continuous effects.
The ability of The Scarab God and the level up ability of Hada Spy Patrol both create Power and Toughness setting effects, which take effect in layer 7, sublayer B.
Since they both take effect in the same layer, and neither is dependent on each other (complicated, not explaining), the order of the effects is determined base off of a timestamp system, with the latest timestamp taking effect last. The The Scarab God's effect's timestamp is when you created the token, while the level up ability's timestamp is when it resolved, so the level up's effect "wins" and sets the token at base P/T 2/2.
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but dont set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, Counters.
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creatures power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creatures toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creatures power.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creatures power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its unswitched power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creatures power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. If the +0/+1 effect ends before the switch effect ends, the creature becomes 3/1.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creatures power and toughness. Then another effect switches its power and toughness again. The two switches essentially cancel each other, and the creature becomes 1/4.
613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.
613.6b A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time its created.
613.6c An object receives a timestamp at the time it enters a zone.
613.6d An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at the time it becomes attached to an object or player.
613.6e A permanent receives a new timestamp at the time it turns face up or face down.
613.6f A double-faced permanent receives a new timestamp at the time it transforms.
613.6g A face-up plane card, phenomenon card, or scheme card receives a timestamp at the time its turned face up.
613.6h A face-up vanguard card receives a timestamp at the beginning of the game.
613.6i A conspiracy card receives a timestamp at the beginning of the game. If its face down, it receives a new timestamp at the time it turns face up.
613.6j If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their relative timestamp order at that time.
June 27, 2017 3:38 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #7
@sonnet666, normally I would agree, but as the rule that brokendwarf posted states, the Level Up ability does not set the p/t when you activate it, but the Leveler itself does according to it's own timestamp. The Level Up ability does not create a p/t changing or setting effect, it simply adds counters to the creature.
June 27, 2017 3:42 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos, Your reasoning is so off right now it's giving me a headache.
First off: Quicksilver Gargantuan copying a Tarmogoyf and staying a 7/7 has nothing to do with timestamps or layers. It's simply because it never gets Tarmogoyf's characteristic-defining ability as per this ruling:
6/1/2011: If the chosen creature has a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness, that ability will not be copied. For example, if Quicksilver Gargantuan copies a Nightmare, it will not gain the ability that sets its power and toughness to the number of Swamps you control. As such, it will remain a 7/7.
I now need to look through the comp rules to make sure everything works they way I think it does (hence, headache), so you're going to have to give me a minute.
June 27, 2017 4:01 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #9
The rule literally says, and I quote "Effects that set a leveler's power or toughness to a specific value, including the effects from a level symbol's ability, apply in timestamp order. The timestamp of each level symbol's ability is the same as the timestamp of the leveler itself, regardless of when the most recent level counter was put on it. For example, say Coralhelm Commander is on the battlefield, then Godhead of Awe, which says "Other creatures are 1/1,". After the second level counter is put on Coralhelm Commander, it will be 1/1 (not 3/3) and have flying, because Godhead of Awe's ability applies last. (If Godhead of Awe entered the battlefield before Coralhelm Commander, on the other hand, then the Commander's ability would apply last and it would be 3/3.)"
Bolded the important part. Leveling Up does NOT create a p/t change timestamp.
June 27, 2017 4:04 p.m.
Are you quoting the comprehensive rules, or are you quoting brokendwarf?
Because that isn't in the comp rules.
June 27, 2017 4:14 p.m.
The level up ability gets a new timestamp when it gets to the next level:
702.86. Level Up
702.86a Level up is an activated ability. Level up [cost] means [Cost]: Put a level counter on this permanent. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
702.86b Each card printed with a level up ability is known as a leveler card. It has a nonstandard layout and includes two level symbols that are themselves keyword abilities. See rule 710, Leveler Cards.
710 Leveler Cards
710.1. Each leveler card has a striated text box and three power/toughness boxes. The text box of a leveler card contains two level symbols.
710.2. A level symbol is a keyword ability that represents a static ability. The level symbol includes either a range of numbers, indicated here as N1-N2, or a single number followed by a plus sign, indicated here as N3+. Any abilities printed within the same text box striation as a level symbol are part of its static ability. The same is true of the power/toughness box printed within that striation, indicated here as [P/T].
710.2a LEVEL N1-N2 [Abilities] [P/T] means As long as this creature has at least N1 level counters on it, but no more than N2 level counters on it, it has base power and toughness [P/T] and has [abilities].
710.2b LEVEL N3+ [Abilities] [P/T] means As long as this creature has N3 or more level counters on it, it has base power and toughness [P/T] and has [abilities].
AND:
613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.
The level up ability creates a new static ability that wasn't on the battlefield before and therefore gets a new timestamp.
Also, from Godhead of Awe's gather rulings:
10/1/2009: Godhead of Awes ability overwrites other effects that set a creatures power and toughness to specific values only if those effects existed before the Godhead entered the battlefield. It will not overwrite effects that modify power or toughness (whether from a static ability, counters, or a resolved spell or ability), nor will it overwrite effects that set power and toughness which come into existence after the Godhead enters the battlefield. Effects that switch the creatures power and toughness are always applied after any other power or toughness changing effects, including that of the Godhead.
June 27, 2017 4:20 p.m.
Also, and I was incorrect earlier, which may have caused confusion, The Scarab God does not set the token's P/T in layer 7b. Rather, it modifies the copiable values of that token, so that it's base P/T is 4/4.
706.9c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.
Example: Copy Artifact is an enchantment that reads, You may have Copy Artifact enter the battlefield as a copy of any artifact on the battlefield, except its an enchantment in addition to its other types. It enters the battlefield as a copy of Juggernaut. The copiable values of the Copy Artifact now match those of Juggernaut with one modification: its types are now artifact, creature, and enchantment.
You can think of this as overwriting the 1/1 at the top of Hada Spy Patrol.
This does not overwrite the 2/2 and 3/3 below it in the text box, as they are part of the level symbol keyword ability that represents a static ability, and are not Hada Spy Patrol's power and toughness at any other time.
With that in mind, the level ability is always going to take precedence over the 4/4 from The Scarab God, since the 4/4 is technically "what's printed on the card" (or part of the copy effect in Layer 1, I don't even know anymore) and the level symbol is a static ability that is setting Hada Spy Patrol's P/T in layer 7b.
As per:
613.1. The values of an objects characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, Copying Objects.
...
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
Case Fucking Closed.
June 27, 2017 4:42 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #13
I was quoting a ruling that can be found at the Gatherer under Leveler cards, such as http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kargan+dragonlord
June 27, 2017 4:44 p.m. Edited.
Fuck man. I'm sick of this Layers shit. I don't even know anymore.
June 27, 2017 4:51 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
Credit where it's due: I didn't completely understand this interaction until I read sonnet666's analysis of it.
The characteristics set by the copy effect only affect the P/T shown in the first striation on the leveler card's text box. The other static abilities associated with the level symbols will function as normal, since the P/Ts given there are really only notes explaining their effects. The Hada Spy Patrol in the original example will be a 2/2 if it gets a level counter.
(EDIT: deleted some irrelevant confusing stuff)
June 27, 2017 4:56 p.m. Edited.
Alright, nevermind, I've got it sorted:
I was incorrect in my interpretation of rule 613.6a. The gather ruling makes it clear that the timestamp of the leveler static ability doesn't change as it levels.
However, that doesn't matter, because the Copy effect of The Scarab God changes the P/T of the card to 4/4 back in layer 1 when it changes the copiable values of the token.
Rules:
613.1. The values of an objects characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, Copying Objects.
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original objects characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by as . . . enters the battlefield and as . . . is turned face up abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
706.9c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.
Because The Scarab God makes 4/4 into "what is printed" on the token copy of Hada Spy Patrol, it ALWAYS gets overwritten by the level ability, since that is a static effect applying in layer 7b.
I need some Advil now...
June 27, 2017 5:04 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #17
Gotcha. See that's what I wasn't understanding was whether The Scarab God's ability would be above or below the Leveler's static effect. I never even would have doubted it if not for that ruling.
June 27, 2017 5:37 p.m.
i really can't help but find all this arguing over the interaction between The Scarab God and Hada Spy Patrol hilarious considering the fact that Invisible Stalker is a far superior target. 4/4 with hexproof is strictly better than a 3/3 with shroud.
June 27, 2017 6:43 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #19
@colton815 it does matter though. Hada Spy Patrol is far from the only Leveler, and The Scarab God is far from the only thing that copies a creature and modifies its P/T. Knowing how the interaction works is far more significant to overall game knowledge than knowing a better synergy is.
June 27, 2017 6:58 p.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
@colton815 Considering the fact that the rules question has nothing to do with Invisible Stalker I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. If you're not interested in this conversation then please leave us alone.
June 27, 2017 7:14 p.m.
Rhadamanthus you really don't know why I bring it up? hmm gee. maybe because its pointless to argue over a ruling that shouldn't even come up in play because there are strictly better options?
June 27, 2017 7:31 p.m.
colton815, The rules Q&A is not for discussing what card interactions work best. It's simply for discussing how cards and game rules work.
You can tell Yesterday that Invisible Stalker works better if you want to, but the point is to answer the question about The Scarab God and Hada Spy Patrol, and saying "Invisible Stalker is better" doesn't do that.
Yesterday, If your question is answered (and I really hope it is at this point...) you should select answer so that this will be removed from the active questions queue.
June 27, 2017 7:59 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #23
Boy, apparently I should have gone into more detail in my answer. I could have saved 20 posts by quoting 613.1 but didn't want to look it up.
June 28, 2017 5:17 a.m.
Eh, 613.1 didn't adequately explain it without 706.9 telling you the 4/4 is part of the copy process and 710.2 telling you the level symbols are actually static effects not written in words. There probably still would have been some confusion.
June 28, 2017 5:30 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #25
613.1 explains it pretty well to me. I find it obvious that the changes made by adding level counters is a continuous effect. Then again I also find it obvious that the effect that creates a token sets it's initial p/t and isn't a continuous effect. and that is why I didn't find it necessary to quote rules at all really.
June 28, 2017 7:19 p.m.
You find it obvious that a keyword ability that's represented by "Level 1-2" constitutes a static ability that generates a continuous effect?
That seems like a pretty big leap in reasoning to me without reading the rules section on Levelers first...
June 29, 2017 3:28 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #27
I'm uninterested in really continuing this conversation. Thank you for providing rules clarity. If you think extra rules are necessary to provide clarity by all means link them. However please do not doubt that something that was taken as a given by everyone from the start is fairly obvious. The confusion was never that leveling created a continuous effect. Everyone, including yourself, was operating off of that assumption from the start. The confusion was that the effect that created the token is not a continuous effect. It is a one shot effect.
June 29, 2017 10:03 a.m.
Sorry for I haven't checked on in a couple of days, yes the question has been answered, and thanks for all the help.
As mentioned above, though it's often appreciated to get a suggestion for a better card combination to use, that wasn't really the point of this thread as I'd just intended to confirm my suspicions on the rulings. In any case, it could well be relevant a ruling to learn considering The Scarab God's ability can work at instant speed and with opponents' graveyards and might be used in response to an opponent targeting a good level-up card for returning from their own graveyard.
Thanks again.
Gidgetimer says... #1
Without going into too much detail, yes it is a 2/2 that can not be blocked.
June 27, 2017 12:53 a.m.