Holding priority with split second
Asked by EgyptianSpaceGamer 7 years ago
I have Heartless Hidetsugu equipped with Grafted Exoskeleton (lethal infect), and a Vedalken Orrery on field and Molten Disaster in hand. My opponent has Typhoid Rats and Voidmage Husher on field and Pit Fight in hand (deathtouch fighting and countermagic)... If I activate Ogre's ability, can I hold priority, cast split second, and kill my opponent's Rats and Wizard? Or does my opponent have the chance to kill Ogre with the Rats, and flash in Wizard to counter my ability ALL BEFORE I cast split second? (I apologize for the complexity of this question)
116.3c: If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
Yes you get the priority after activating ability of Heartless Hidetsugu. If you kick Molten Disaster, opponent can't cast spells nor activate nonmana abilities until Molten Disaster leaves the stack and SBA's are checked. Molten Disaster deals damage to players too and this might make Heartless Hidetsugu nonlethal.
July 17, 2017 10:55 a.m.
It's not only the optimal play, but the only one that guarantees that what you're trying will succeed - once you start activating things by activating Heartless Hidetsugu's ability (which means you would have priority), there's no way for your opponent to stop you from doing all of what you want, because even if they secide to act on a hunch in response to your activation of Hidetsugu, you will have priority after putting a spell or ability on the stack, and by destroying their creatures with a split-second spell, you completely lock down their play in this situation (while in general, you could still get hosed, for example by a Stratus Dancer unmorphing).
I'm not sure what Gidgetimer is missing here - or what I'm missing, in case I'm in the wrong. However, what Colgate seems to be missing is that you only need to cast Disaster with X=2, meaning the only opponent's life totals you would be missing with this action would be 22 and 21, which is a small enough margin.
July 17, 2017 11:25 a.m.
I of course meant 21 and 20... of course, I get the math part wrong!
July 17, 2017 11:25 a.m.
While this play works, you could also cast Molten Disaster first and then use Heartless Hidetsugu after it resolves, removing the need for Vedalken Orrery.
July 17, 2017 11:35 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
BlueScope, my problems with the proposed course of events are twofold:
We never got the format so I assume kitchen table casual. As such Heartless Hidetsugu equipped with Grafted Exoskeleton is only lethal infect if they have not lost life, or if they have gained more than they lost. Casting Molten Disaster will do damage to the opponent making Hidetsugu not leathal.
Molten Disaster could be cast first and then activate Heartless Hidetsugu. Generally if you do not have to put multiple objects on the stack at the same time it is advisable to not. Obvious exceptions are stack exploitation strategies since they rely on putting multiple objects on the stack simultaneously.
July 17, 2017 12:03 p.m.
EgyptianSpaceGamer says... #7
I apologize; the format is Commander, and life totals are above 20. I included the instant speed Disaster with the kicker because of my underlying question: When does holding/maintaining priority really affect game play? I've gotten called out many times for responding to my own spell/ability with split second.
July 17, 2017 1:28 p.m.
@Gidgetimer/Neotrup: Because of the way Split Second is involved, the order of casting the spells is irrelevant. Casting it the other way round is not more or less beneficial, unless you're assuming additional cards in play or in players hands. It's true that Vedalken Orrery isn't necessary, though.
That said, I did in fact assume that the format was Commander, so I retract the point about the life change being largely insignificant. In most other formats, 20 life is indeed rather common ;)
July 17, 2017 1:35 p.m.
@EgyptianSpaceGamer: If that was your question, you should've asked it ;) Quoting from a more elaborate thread about that question:
You hold priority when you need to take additional actions before a previous action resolves, and those additional actions depend on the previous actions.
July 17, 2017 1:40 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
BlueScope just because split second is involved doesn't make it any less sub-optimal to respond to Heartless Hidetsugu's activation with Molten Disaster rather than doing one thing at a time. You have already pointed out that if there is a morph out there is a possibility of Stratus Dancer and there are other morph creatures that counter when flipped up. There are also triggered counter spells and mana abilities that require a discard along with madness counters.
Granted you can check to make sure that none of these things are possible before casting the spells. Alternatively, you can just follow the best practice of putting one object on the stack at a time (unless there is a reason for multiple) and not get "got" if you miss something.
July 17, 2017 2:59 p.m.
The advantage of knowing if your opponent has a response is good practice, but I will admit that with split second, board state should tell you if they can respond. Even if they have a discard outlet they wouldn't be able to cast a madness spell, because although madness would still trigger, they wouldn't be able to cast the spell as part of madness's resolution.
July 17, 2017 3:03 p.m.
@Gidgetimer: I agree with you in general, but in the presented case, it doesn't make a difference, and that's what I'm talking about. They described in detail what's on the board and in the opponent's hand, and I don't see any reason to assume that there are other cards involved we're not aware of. By context, it even seems evident that they were aware of this entire information at the time it happened, because otherwise, there'd be no reason to play around it in this fashion.
That said, Stratus Dancer could interrupt this play one way or another, and the only reason to play spells one by one is to not get hosed by Time Stop or Counterflux spells, none of which stand tall against split second. Unless I'm forgetting a very specific morph card or similar effect, this is a perfectly calculateable scenario.
July 17, 2017 3:42 p.m.
EgyptianSpaceGamer says... #13
Thank you all! Everybody had great input, and I am satisfied with the answer :) This makes me wanna ask a lot more!
Gidgetimer says... #1
You can hold priority to cast Molten Disaster after activating Heartless Hidetsugu. It seems like a bit of a sub-optimal play to me, but it can be done.
July 17, 2017 9:59 a.m.