Difference between player and opponent?
Asked by Faeros 10 years ago
Was playing two headed giant today and a friend had two Guttersnipe out. Him (and everyone there) think that it hits twice because each team is one player but two opponents. This doesn't make sense to me. Is that right? Because if so, it's rediculously overpowered. Cast 2 spells and that's immediately 8 damage.
And they won't believe me if I just show them this thread, so if possible, can you state the actual rule where it says the difference?
Thanks in advance.
What about Celestial Flare ? Do you target the both of them or just one? Say I was going to use it against one guy with a 1000/1000 creature and the other guy has a 1/1. Theoretically, because you say they are two separate players, would you be able to just target the one with the 1000/1000?
June 5, 2014 1:53 a.m.
They are each one player. They do not combine to become 1 player, only 1 team. If it says ONE PLAYER, it means ONE PLAYER, not one team. Make sense?
June 5, 2014 1:59 a.m.
Check out this article from WotC. It answers a lot of questions about the format.
June 5, 2014 2:15 a.m.
It would make sense that the opposing team comprises of two players, and that each player not on my team would be an opponent. I'm just trying to clarify this for myself and my friends who tend to believe whoever is the most convincing at the time and not who is actually right.
So, would I be right to assume that I could select an individual PLAYER to sacrifice a creature?
June 5, 2014 3:20 a.m.
yes.
Cards NEVER refer to "teams" unless it said "teammate" or "opposing team". But they don't (except I think one card in MTG history said teammate).
Anyways, players don't refer to teams, nor do opponents. Always ONE specific person unless otherwise stated (like Mind Grind : "each opponent")
June 5, 2014 4:21 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #7
Two headed giant has official rules now, but to be honest id say come to an agreement yourselves because the official rules suck.
This game isn't made to be played in teams, there are a lot of cards that are just silly as shit when corrupted by two-headed giant.
June 5, 2014 6:51 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #8
And can you block for each other? How the fuck does that work. You lose life because your teammate has five creatures and combined your opponents have ten, your untapped creatures can't intervene?
I would come up with your own rules by consensus. Whether a spell is affecting a player or a team should depend on what it does. Losing life/direct damage that should hit the team not individuals. If its talking about the board state, then it should be individual. And there are probably still hundreds of cards that need rulings for each
June 5, 2014 7 a.m.
Schuesseled: If you look at the link in my last post, you'll see that teams attack and block as one, meaning that either teammate may block any creature that the opposing team attacks with.
Example: I have 3 creatures and my teammate has 2. You and your teammate have 2 creatures each. We attack your team with all 5 creatures collectively. You can choose to block those 5 creatures in any way you choose as long as all blocks would otherwise be legal (ie. Flying only be blocked by Flying or Reach). If you wanna use 1 of your 2 creatures to block 1 of mine and the other to block one of my partner's and have your partner do the same, that is perfectly fine. Now, if one of my creatures has an ability that specifies defending player ( cough Annhilator cough), then I would choose which defending player that ability would affect.
The only exception to this (I guess that's what you would call it) is if a creature has a landwalk ability. If an attacking creature has Swampwalk and eith player on the defending team has a Swamp , then neither player on the defending team can block it.
June 5, 2014 7:25 a.m.
As far as losing life/direct damage, how those work depends on the wording on the card. Lightning Bolt is only gonna hit for 3 regardless since it says target player. You still choose which player it targets, but it hits the collective life total if/when it resolves. Gray Merchant of Asphodel can get wicked though. Because it says each opponent, teammates are each counted separately since they are both individual opponents of yours. It basically equates to double the life loss/life gain. Thankfully, Devotion is still only counted for the individual player controlling him and not the team as a whole. That could just get insane.
If you really wanna see things get outta hand, try doing what we did at my LGS a couple weekends ago and play 4 team 2HG Planeschase EDH with random draw for teams. I ended up teamed with my oldest son, me playing Nekusar and him playing Gisela. I drop a T3 Dream Halls and things got outta control very quickly.
June 5, 2014 7:36 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Rules questions belong in the Q&A, which is linked in the header bar. I can't convert this to a question, so it's getting moved to BE.
June 5, 2014 8:10 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #12
"Now, if one of my creatures has an ability that specifies defending player ( cough Annhilator cough), then I would choose which defending player that ability would affect."
A perfect example of shitty official rules, thank you.
The way I would do it is simple. But is going to result in one hell of a long post, it will be based off of the "official" or stupid ruleset.
Two-Headed Giant FAQJanuary 1, 2012 - Amended by a smart person
What is the Two-Headed Giant format?
Two-Headed Giant is a ---- format in which multiple teams of multiple players each play against one another in a single game. - There is really no reason to limit yourselves to four players here.
How do teams sit at the table?Each team sits together on the table - What was all that nonsense about the primary player.
How much life does each team start with?
Each team has a shared life total, which starts at 20 life plus another ten for each other player on the team.
If playing EDH it's 40 plus another 20 per extra player.
How do poison counters work in Two-Headed Giant?
Poison counters are also shared within a team. If a team has 10 plus 5 per extra player on the team, that team loses the game.
What about commander damage?
If playing an EDH variant, using the same principle for poison counters we can work out that it takes over 20 plus 10 damage per each extra player from any enemy team's commanders to cause the other team to lose.
For example, a team with three players would lose the game if they have taken 41 or more points of commander damage from any or all from another team. This damage could have come from just one commander or spread out from them all, it doesn't matter.
What resources do players on a team share?
With the exception of life total and poison counters, a teams resources (cards in hand, mana, and so on) are not shared.
When a card says you, does that refer only to the player controlling that card, or does it affect the whole team?
Any card that says you refers to your team, if a card says your control it refers to your team's control. Similarly replace the word's player(s) with team(s) and opponent(s) with opponent team(s) on every card.
Example: Angie controls two 1/1 Goblin tokens and casts a Glorious Anthem. Her teammate Barry controls a 1/1 Saproling token. When Glorious Anthem enters the battlefield, Angie and Barry's tokens will become 2/2s,
If I target a "team" with a spell that would normally resolve with that player making a choice, for example sacrificing a creature, what happens now?
A team that has to make a choice for example to "discard a card", "draw a card", "sacrifice a creature" chooses a player or multiple players to perform the exact task required.
For example Billy, Benny and Bobby are in a team, they are tasked with "discarding a card" they must between them discard exactly one card, no more and no less, if at all possible. Billy has 5 cards in hand, Bobby has 1, Benny has none. Benny can't discard so the team must decide among themselves whether it would be best for Billy or Bobby to do so.
If the team is tasked with "drawing three cards" because Benny has a rich daddy whom has bought him an Ancestral Recall . Then their team must draw three cards total. They could draw one each, have one player draw two and another one or one player even draw all three. The decision on who draws what cards, is a team decision, not Benny's.
Can players look at each others' hands or discuss strategy during a game?Yes. Teammates may freely review each others' hands and discuss strategy during games as long as such discussions do not slow the game down. However decisions must be made by each individual team member. A player on the team cannot force his teammates to do what he wants, nor can their be a majority vote on how to proceed. Teammates advise and individual players act.
If a player can legally look at cards in a hidden zone, like my library or an opponent's hand, can that player show those cards to his or her teammate?
Yes. Teammates can look at any cards that a member of the team is entitled to see.
What sorts of communication can players use to discuss strategy?
Any type of communication is acceptable with the exception of written communication. This is because written communication is difficult to distinguish from notes taken outside of the match, which are not legal under the Magic Tournament Rules.
How do turns work in Two-Headed Giant? Does each player take his or her own turn?
No. Instead, each team takes its own turn, and all players on the team go through the parts of the turn simultaneously. Steps and phases are shared between teammates.
How do effects that trigger at the beginning of a step or phase work in Two-Headed Giant?
Effects that trigger at the beginning of [each/your] step or phase will trigger once during that step or phase. Effects that trigger at the beginning of each [player's/opponent's] step or phase will trigger trigger once. As discussed player becomes team, and the team has just one of each phase, i.e. upkeep/end step/combat.
Example: Verdant Force reads At the beginning of each upkeep, put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield. Since Verdant Force says each upkeep, the team will receive 1 Saproling token during their upkeep and 1 Saproling token during the opposing teams upkeep. The token always enters the battlefield under the control of the player who controls such an ability. You cannot gift cards, tokens, emblems to teammates, even though they may benefit from it.
Example: Luminarch Ascension reads At the beginning of each opponent's end step, if you didn't lose life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Luminarch Ascension. Since Luminarch Ascension says each opponent's end step, it will trigger for each opponent team's end step, which will be just once per opposing team.
How does priority work?
Teams have priority, not individual players. Players can only cast spells, activate abilities, or take special actions when their team has priority. If both players on a team want to take an action at the same time, they decide among each other in which order to play spells, similarly in which order to place abilities onto the stack when necessary. "Roll a dice to determine who win's the argument and start a subsequent argument of the vague meaning of this phrase."
What happens if both teams need to make choices, take actions, or put triggers on the stack at the same time?
The Active Player, Non-active Player order rule normally used to govern such situations (Comprehensive Rules part 101.4) is modified for Two-Headed Giant play. The team whose turn it is the active team. The other team(s) are the nonactive teams. If more than one team would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, first the active team makes any choices required, and then the nonactive team(s) makes any choices required. Then the actions happen simultaneously. If both teams have triggered abilities that need to be put on the stack, the members of the active team put all triggered abilities any of them controls on the stack in any order they choose, then the members of each nonactive team in turn order do the same.As you probably know already, the stack resolves top down, meaning the inactive team(s) abilities resolve first, in reverse of the order they were added.
How does priority pass to the other team?
It works just like it does in a regular one-on-one game, except that teams, rather than players, pass priority back and forth. If neither player on a team wishes to do anything, that team passes. If both teams pass in succession (that is, if both teams pass without any player taking any actions in between passing), the top object on the stack resolves, then the active team receives priority. If the stack is empty when both teams pass in succession, the phase or step ends and the next one begins.
How do effects that give one of the players another turn, add a step or phase to a player's turn, or remove a step or phase from a player's turn work?
If an effect gives a player an extra turn or adds a phase or a step to that players turn, that players team takes the extra turn, phase, or step. If an effect causes a player to skip a step, phase, or turn, that players team does so. - Remember player = team
How do effects that give one player control of another player work?
If an effect causes a player to control another player, the controller of that effect controls the affectedplayer's team. Although the entire team is sure to pitch in.
How does combat work?
Each teams creatures attack the other team as a group. During the combat phase, the active team is the attacking team and each player on the active team is an attacking player. Likewise, the nonactive team is the defending team and each player on the nonactive team is a defending player. Some effects will refer to a single defending player; in such a case, the defending player is the entire team. (player = team). The ability may require a choice by the defending team to be made.
Example: Alan is attacking with a Thraximundar, which says Whenever Thraximundar attacks, defending player sacrifices a creature. When the triggered ability of Thraximundar resolves, Alan's opponent's will need to decide among themselves which creature to sacrifice, it can be from any of their fields.
How does the declare attackers step work?
As the declare attackers step begins, the active team declares attackers. If a creature is unable to attack one of the defending players, that creature cant attack the defending team. The active team has one combined attack, and that set of attacking creatures must be legal as a whole.
Example: Erica controls Teferis Moat, which says As Teferis Moat comes into play, choose a color. Creatures of the chosen color without flying cant attack you. Creatures of the chosen color without flying cant attack Erica's team.
How does the declare blockers step work?
As the declare blockers step begins, the defending team declares blockers. Creatures controlled by the defending players can block any attacking creatures. The defending team has one combined block, and that set of blocking creatures must be legal as a whole. Once blockers have been declared, for each attacking creature that's become blocked by multiple creatures, the active team announces the damage assignment order among the blocking creatures. Then, for each creature that's blocking multiple creatures, the defending team announces the damage assignment order among the attacking creatures.
Example: If an attacking creature has forestwalk and either player on the defending team controls a Forest, the creature cant be blocked. - I know this example makes no sense, don't blame me. It is none the less true
How is combat damage assigned?
As the combat damage step begins, the active team announces how each attacking creature will assign its combat damage. If an attacking creature would assign combat damage to the defending team, The team is assisnged the damage, and any abilities that would trigger from that damage apply to the team as a whole. Not individual players or each individual player. Then the defending team announces how each blocking creature will assign its combat damage.
Does a team lose when their life total reaches 0?
Yes. If a teams life total is 0 or less, the team loses the game the next time a team would receive priority.
If player on a team loses, does the other player keep playing?
No. Players win and lose the game only as a team, not as individuals. If either player on a team loses the game, the team loses the game. If either player on a team wins the game, the entire team wins the game. If an effect would prevent a player from winning the game, that players team cant win the game. If an effect would prevent a player from losing the game, that players team cant lose the game.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a player controls Transcendence, which reads, in part, You dont lose the game for having 0 or less life. If that players teams life total is 0 or less, that team doesnt lose the game.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a player attempts to draw a card while there are no cards in that players library. That player loses the game, so that players entire team loses the game.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a player controls Platinum Angel, which reads, You cant lose the game and your opponents cant win the game. Neither that player nor his or her teammate can lose the game while Platinum Angel is in play, and neither player on the opposing team can win the game.
If a player on a team concedes the game, can the other player keep playing?
No. If a player concedes, his or her team loses the game. - You may however beat up the "coward".
How does damage, loss of life, and gaining life work with the single life total for the team?
Damage, loss of life, and gaining life happens to the team, not individual players. Any effects that would increase or decrease these increases or decreases in life does so for the entire team. The result is applied to the teams shared life total.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a player plays Flame Rift, which reads, Flame Rift deals 4 damage to each player. Each team is dealt a total of 4 damage.
If an effect needs to know what a players life total is, what number do I use?
If an effect needs to know the value of an individual players life total, that effect uses the teams life total.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a team is at 17 life when a player activates Heartless Hidetsugus ability, which reads, Heartless Hidetsugu deals to each player damage equal to half that players life total, rounded down. For the purposes of this ability, the team is considered to be at 17 life, the team would then be dealt 8 damage.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a player controls Test of Endurance, an enchantment that reads, At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 50 or more life, you win the game. If that player's team has 50 or more life when the ability resolves, that team will win the game. - - You might want to ban cards like this from your play group if plan on playing with very large teams.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, a player controls Lurking Jackals, which reads, When an opponent has 10 life or less, if Lurking Jackals is an enchantment, it becomes a 3/2 Hound creature. If the opposing team has 10 life or less, Lurking Jackals will become a creature.
If an effect sets a single players life total to a number, what number do I set the teams life total to?
If an effect would set a single players life total to a number,it instead sets their team's life total to that number
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, Maureen becomes the target of Magister Sphinx's triggered ability. (Magister Sphinx says When Magister Sphinx enters the battlefield, target player's life total becomes 10.) Maureen's team's life total is 25 before the ability resolves, the team loses 15 lief to drop down to 10.
If an effect sets a life total for each player on a team to a specific number, what number do I set the life total to?
If an effect would set the life total of each player on a team to a number, that team's life total becomes the number.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game, Ronald plays Biorhythm, which reads, Each players life total becomes the number of creatures he or she controls. Ronald and his teammate, Edward, are at 13 life. Ronald controls no creatures, and Edward controls three creatures, the team collectively has three creatures, their life total becomes three.
How does the Play-Draw rule work Two-Headed Giant matches?
A team determined at random chooses either to play first or to play second. The choice must be made before either player on that team looks at his or her hand. If either player on the team looks at his or her hand before a choice is made, their team plays first. The team that plays first skips the draw step of its first turn.
Unless there are more than two teams, like with any multipalyer match all players draw a card on their first turn irregardless of who goes first. In this case each player on each draws a card on their first turn.
Mr Schuesseled, I read on the official rules that each team can only have 4 of each card in total between their decks, is this true?
Maybe in an official = stupidly sanctioned event. My advice is to say "fuck that" and build your decks to contain no more than four of any one card, what your teammates are using doesn't matter. You can still run 4, as long as you haven't agreed as a play group that card X,Y or Z are to broken to use.
You are welcome Wizards.
June 5, 2014 9:10 a.m.
ie...tl;dr: I'll stick to the official rules because other than cards like Gary being more powerful and a few cards being weaker than usual, they're pretty balanced.
How, in any way, is deciding which player is affected by "defending player" abilities an example of shitty rules?
June 5, 2014 10:08 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #15
@ljs54321 Because you are attacking all of them. It's dumb. I have also heard people argue that because all players are "defending players" on the enemy team they each have to sacrifice two permanents, or that the opponents gets to decide which of their guys has to sacrifice so they choose the guy without any permanents.
All of these examples are moronic. The only sensible way to handle annihilator is to let the team decide which permanents they will sacrifice collectively and wholly.
There are a whole heap of cards that become stupid under 2HG official rules, most prominently, Heartless Hidetsugu , which instantly kills all teams of two or more players on any even amount of life. And what's worse, wizards actually cites this as example of their officially sanctioned rulings, dumb shits.
Although aside from the now especially stupid cards you still have a unfair balance between offensive and defensive cards. Cards that are meant to protect permanents will rarely protect your teammates , where as cards that are meant to deal damage simultaneously to your opponents are now on crack.
ljs54321 says... Accepted answer #1
Yes, they are correct. They may share a life total, but they are still considered 2 separate players. Each player that is not your teammate is considered your opponent.
Check this link. 4th post down is an explanation from a L3 Judge.
June 5, 2014 1:07 a.m.