Can I cast Soul Tithe on a hexproof creature.
Asked by zekna1992 12 years ago
My line of thinking is that Soul Tithe doesn't say target so I can. But when I was playing a pick up game at my local shop my opponent said that all enchantments automatically target even if it doesn't say the exact word so I'm not allowed too.
hexproof creature in question Geist of Saint Traft
When you cast an aura, you have to declare a target as you cast it. Geist's hexproof would make it an illegal target and the spell would fizzle.
November 13, 2012 10:23 p.m.
Brennan no it wouldn't fizzle it's just an illegal target so it would rewind and they would have to pick a legal one.
November 13, 2012 10:30 p.m.
114.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Auras target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, Enchant). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesnt target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)
November 13, 2012 10:30 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Though you're right to think that effects only target if they specifically say "target", it's not just about the text of the card, but also the full rules text of any keyword abilities on the card. The full rules text for the Enchant keyword ability explains that an Aura spell has a target. An opponent's creature with Hexproof can't be the target of Aura spells you cast.
When Auras aren't in the process of being cast as spells, they don't target. If you can find a way to move Soul Tithe onto Geist of Saint Traft without casting it, this could work. Before the most recent Standard rotation, Sun Titan would have been able to do this, but I don't think there are any options in Standard right now.
November 13, 2012 10:37 p.m.
You could use card:Faith's Reward to put an aura on your opponent's geist.
November 13, 2012 10:41 p.m.
"114.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast..."
If you cast Soul Tithe from hand, you cannot target Geist of Saint Traft . The reason why is because aura spells target, even though the spell does not directly say "target". This is the only time I believe that "target" is implied and not directly spelled out in the game of Magic.
However, this is directed towards you and BrennanMcCabe, if you cast a spell with an illegal target, the game backs up to where something went wrong.
"717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play..."
Since what went wrong was casting the aura spell, it would back up before he even cast the spell. The spell would have never existed. Therefore, he gets to untap his mana, and keep the card. However, there might be penalties at a tournament.
November 13, 2012 10:42 p.m.
A spell "fizzles" whenever all targets of a spell become illegal.
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal.
However, since Geist of Saint Traft could never be a target, it never became an illegal target, it simply was illegal in the first place.
November 13, 2012 10:45 p.m.
@oona_fei is incorrect. That only happens whenever you cast something like Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere .
The reason why is because the game backs up to where you screwed up. In this case, the resolution of the enchantment was perfectly legal. However, the target wasn't. Therefore, the game backs up to the resolution, and thus the Oblivion Ring , Journey to Nowhere , or Detention Sphere would still be on the battlefield, and thus you must choose an illegal target.
However, in a Doom Blade -like or aura-spell situation, the place where the illegal action took place was the casting of the spell. Therefore, the game would back up before he casted the spell. Thus, he gets to completely rewind the situation as if it never happened.
November 13, 2012 10:54 p.m.
@ fireteam
You stated that you believe Enchantment- Auras are the only time that target is implied, but not stated.
There is also 'Equip'... though some do have 'reminder text', which explains that it targets, the term itself implies the targeting.
Though that wouldn't make a difference to hexproof, as you can only equip a creature you control.
Which would be another way to enchant a creature with hexproof... find a way to control it temporarily, without targeting it.... Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded 's ultimate can do this.
November 13, 2012 11:21 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #14
There's no such thing as an "implied" target. Like I said in my response, the rules text for a keyword ability counts as well. The full rules text for Enchant uses the word "target" when talking about casting, which means an aura spell targets. Similarly, the full rules text for Equip uses the word "target" when talking about activating it, so the ability targets.
November 13, 2012 11:33 p.m.
You're right. In magic terminology, the word 'Implied target' is not used... We however, were using english term 'implied' to explain that in a few circumstances the word target is not written directly on the card, even though it still needs a valid target. i.e: it is implied.
I'm not certain why you felt the need fix that which was not broken.
November 14, 2012 8:02 a.m.
If you attempted this at a competitive REL event, you would receive a Warning for a Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation, and we would back up prior to casting.
November 14, 2012 8:14 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #17
I've always loved that little rule bender that auras have. If it comes onto the battlefield from anywhere but hand (an attacking Sun Titan for example) then it does not target. Only auras played from hand target.
November 14, 2012 9:08 a.m.
@Ohthenoises Sun Titan and Geist of Saint Traft were the only reasons Dead Weight EVER made it into standard :D
November 14, 2012 9:16 a.m.
Dead Weight is a fine card (it's a permanent Disfigure )
November 14, 2012 9:24 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
@Rayenous: When answering a technical rules question, using made up or non-standard rules terms in an explanation just risks causing more confusion. It's best to just explain the answer as it is.
KBash says... #1
Enchanting is a targeting move, especially because Soul Tithe is an aura.
November 13, 2012 10:23 p.m.