In Dimir, the combo is definitely not hard to pull off at all.

CyborgAeon I’m not buying the “This Commander does stuff with Infinite mana so it’s strong” argument, mostly because if we were to use that argument almost any deck can be viable. Oona’s casting cost alone lowers her viability in my opinion, but as seen earlier in this thread there is a bit of personal bias I likely won’t be able to argue through. As for Varolz, Teysa, Orzhov Scion off the top of my head already comes to mind as a better sac outlet that is just as cheap and as I said earlier, if we want Green for Protean Hulk shenanigans every color combination can do what Varolz offers for the deck if not better. Your argument that a Commander is necessary when considering wincons that don’t even need the Commander to win comes across as weak to me. Infinite Mana and Infinite Storm likely can win a game regardless of Ishkanah or Circu in an appropriately built deck, so to say that those already sufficient wincons make those Commanders high tier comes across as either disingenuous or as a misunderstanding of what makes those win conditions strong to begin with. I can just as easily use Infinite Mana to Tutor Torment of Hailfire and win in literally any deck running Black than rely on 5-6 mana creatures like Ishkanah or Oona that are more susceptible to disruption

Lmao, what?! Oona's casting cost means nothing, because when she hits the table, the game's over. You were making arguments for Prossh, when he has the same cmc, but is harder to cast than Oona, since Oona can be cast with any combination of U/B. Oona is not really susceptible to very much disruption when she hits the table at all, because again, when she hits, the game is over. What makes her strong is her colors, and the fact that she's a good mana sink that just ends the game.

It really seems like you've never seen a good Oona deck in action, with a good pilot behind the wheel.

And the point of having a Commander that also acts as a wincon is so you don't rely on having an additional tutor to fetch up your wincon (because you always have it in the Command Zone), so your argument about Torment of Hailfire is rather baseless, and is in no way a good argument.

crstisalie I made my claims under the assumption that Oona is not being played in a scenario where we have access to infinite mana, which I do apologize for not clarifying but I figured when I criticized the mana cost that was assumed (Since complaining about mana costs with the context of infinite mana is superfluous). The argument with Prossh is that Prossh doesn't need the infinite mana set up to win plus needing only 3 colored sources makes him an easier target to ramp out as opposed to Oona's 4 colored sources necessary to win (counting the activated ability, of course), meaning Oona in that same context is significantly worse. Now, that is in the context of not having infinite mana available. In the context of having infinite mana, I'm saying that Oona (or any infinite mana/spell Commander) as a win condition in the Command Zone isn't necessary, as there should be a critical mass of tutors to the point that we should have a few in hand every game. In that case where we do have infinite mana, it really doesn't matter where our win condition is because in all likelihood we'll be able to grab it by tutoring, using the infinite mana to draw our entire deck, or by just having it in hand already. As you can see, if it doesn't matter where the win condition is located saying that Oona is high tier because that card starts in the Command Zone is silly because Oona's win condition should be able to win regardless of whether or not Oona is in play. This method of evaluation can arguably apply to every Commander however since most color combinations can pull off quick wins regardless of the Commander, so for the purposes of evaluation the Commander needs to be evaluated in a vacuum. Oona when she's not winning the game is rather mediocre, which is why (to me) it seems unfair for her to be rated so highly when other Commanders (like Prossh, for example) have value without the main win condition. Now, that evaluation of Oona is my opinion which you are entitled to disagree with, but I wanted to clarify that my argument is not baseless nor is it based on any anecdotal evidence as alleged in your comment.

So because Oona requires infinite mana to win to game on the spot, means that it's less viable than a commander like Prossh, or Narset? Riight. First and foremost, as was already pointed out, she's Dimir, which are the two best colors in the game. With infinite mana, she needs 6 colored sources to win in a four man pod, in any combination of black or blue... but when the deck generates infinite colored mana (which it does very easily), her casting cost, and the cost of her activated ability, is completely irrelevant, because the game is over. What are you gonna do? Counter her when I have infinite colored mana? I'll just cast her again. Destroy her when she enters? Activate her ability in response, and exile your deck, and everyone elses. And the deck, by virtue of its colors, runs other compact, back up wincons, to close out the game, for consistency purposes.

And your argument about how you should pretty much always have a tutor in hand to tutor up your wincon is just blatantly false, because if you've played this game enough, you would know that you don't always have extra tutors in hand when you need them (it's called variance, which every singleton format has a lot of), so having the ability to have a Commander that also doubles as a wincon is waay more advantageous to the pilot of the deck, than a commander that doesn't win on the spot, once it's cast, and has to rely on cards in hand to close out the game.

Trying to chime in on something thats not "please read the primer" for what seems to occur somewhat naturally. Get ready for a text wall.

The argument of "what does this do with infinite mana" is half to a third of the argument imo. Any color combination can make infinite mana to an extent, yes that is true. What does that mana do is the question and why is that commander important is the reasoning to ranking. Ishkana has the ability to be a mana sink in the command zone. As is oona. The question then becomes efficiency to produce infinite mana- golgari has some problems. hence why I see it as high power to mid power. dimir has a bit of an easier time due to dramatic reversal.

Why doesnt that make every UB commander at least high power- if the commander doesnt help the gameplan then its not truely conducive to the plan youre building. Lord tresserhorn is a grixis commander. it has a lot more hoops to jump through to use storm as an archetype than jaleva/kess.

Next thing to weigh- mana cost. Yes we run fast mana. Does that mean we're going to draw the nuts every game- no. I tried cEDH testing muldrotha for a good 5 months only to find that mana cost to be overbearing. 5 mana and above is kinda hard to generate when youre also fighting to stop 3 other game plans. Now you make the argument that its the last to come down or only if you generate infinite mana. Thats a large thing to assume when youre not goldfishing. Resolving the combo is one thing, you also need to make sure it sticks. When X happens isnt a good arguement. X might never happen. X might happen then get disrupted. Natural state/natures claiming a resolved scepter is a thing. Counter wars are a thing. you need to be able to keep up consistently. thats the bottom line for high power and above.

What do i mean by consistently? concise combos, minimal dead cards, tried and true strategies. Flashhulk, storm, raza, food chain, stax. Can your commander contribute to these strategies? varolz is a sac outlet for hulk. ishkana can work with food chain, albeit weaker.

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Now where does that leave this list? Do you not agree with this placement? First answer me this, does your commander actively help the strategy youre pursuing? Secondly, have you tested these against the tiers? IRL, Trice, Xmage, Untap, i dont care where but you need to get the testing and tuning down. Theorycrafting is one thing but until you try to put it into practice, it wont work. Podmom was hyped for a while and has been brewed relentlessly. Does that make her higher than high power, no.

Also a thing to keep in mind- While this is a popular list, this is more or less a blueprint. Circu has been argued for YEARS among the community. Despite many games in many different builds, its been proven to keep up. That should let you know you dont have to abandon an idea if it can keep up but still gets hated on. Just look at Sram and Jhoira. The main thing is that the highest tiers just have the consistency proven through the times. So people naturally favor those.

TLDR; Test your lists thoroughly. This list is a nice idea to get an average of where your deck might stand but you need to remember the fundamentals of cEDH alongside MTG. Youre playing to win. Can you win? can you do it consistently? Are you having fun? If yes to all 3, why do you need validation from this list? the community will eventually pick up on it.

chaosumbreon87 I appreciate your detailed and articulate response, much better than the “DiMiR iS tHe BeSt CoLoR OoNa WiNs WiTh InFiNiTe MaNa” circlejerk that is completely missing the point. I’m not saying I have all the answers, my point isn’t that these Commanders can’t do powerful things or aren’t wincons. My point is that saying “Commander X does Y so it’s strong” isn’t really that cohesive because there’s more to consider than the one scenario or game plan where everything works as intended. I’m not saying I have all the answers or could compile a better list myself, I’m simply critiquing what is there and the evident logic behind it.

Sorry, but I can't be any more clear than I already have been. Your argument/assessment of what is more viable over the other is just wrong. You can sit here and plug your ears, and stomp your feet all you like, but that won't change that fact.

Hello guys, Just found this list and was comparing my decks to them. Noticed you didn't have a Jodah deck to compare to so thought I would share mine! I don't believe it's as competitive as you're looking for, but I think its a good start point as I have won many a game against other high power lists. Here he is: The Infinity Gauntlet.

Brolamog_the_Infinite_Higher it would seem that you missed the point. The argument isn't about colours. The argument isn't that these generals are more optimal than others. Unfortunately, the best thing for you to do - in order to understand these placements better is to playtest and look at primers.

Your argument "I can do x with infinite mana" is great! Nice - a lot of decks do play an infinite mana sink in the deck, or an endlessly loopable spell ie dramatic reversal. The consolidated list here is to provide decklists for decks that have (supposedly) the most concise & efficient win conditions and ways to achieve that.

I would argue that the most efficient (card wise) generals "do x with infinite mana" not because every colour can do it, but because the general costs no card slots and streamlines your gameplan's consistency by being (effectively) always available.

There are many other decks with many cool combos. Just because the commander HAS a combo in their colours doesn't make them the top tier - but it means that initially they're ranked higher on this list based on how efficiently they can reach a competitively viable goal.

The tiers here are only expressed thanks to data gathered by a host of cEDH players. A lot of these decks have very good decks built with the commander as a sink because it's efficient. Why is prossh lower than others? Likely because despite the data - it shows that he's not as strong as other builds.

The varolz deck is reported as strong as it is thanks to a lot of testing and has proven to offer enough to a game that it's consistently viable to sac hulk to varolz. The deck ratings are based more on consistency now, as the greatest strategies are run across the board in cEDH.

If this meant that I could reasonably submit a decklist for Teysa by praetor's grasping my opponent's protean hulk, I would. But meta is ignored in the list.

IE: Sisay. Imo - that deck is selesnya, sure it can tutor from the command zone, but the restriction is far too damning. Despite my personal belief that it shouldn't be considered as strong as it is - the deck has proven itself to be among the most consistent decks with a very flexible strategy.

Your point that: I have to say, this tier list is bad. Ishkanah, Grafwidow is nowhere near a high power level Commander, and to put the Spider Tribal Commander above Edgar Markov , Athreos, God of Passage and Skullbriar, the Walking Grave is absurd seems flawed at best. Ishkana is an efficient deck that achieves infinite mana & kills the table with ease, same goes for oona. a jank spider tribal commander deck it most certainly is not.

Furthermore:

If we're counting Protean Hulk combo decks as "competitive" there's plenty more worthy commanders to consider why yes! In fact there are 75 mono green options alone. The varolz deck in question is (evidently) better than those as a protean hulk deck.

In summary: Honestly, this list comes across like the author just put a few decks everyone knows is good at the top while that may seem like the case, there's a lot of helpful information to be found in the description of the list, lots of fantastic discussion in the archives to read about, many decks listed (usually each with their own spicy primer on WHY the deck is good). Sorry I'm not sorry, pal. But if you dislike the list, then you may have to put in a lot of effort to convince the owner(s - oh yeah, not just one person deciding. These decisions are made over time and discussed at length - usually by more than just one of the authors) by putting in some elbow grease & proving that the decks you find more competitive are just that.

Tl;Dr: do some reading, have a well thought out point with evidence before insulting many people's time & effort.

I'm still relatively inexperienced compared to many, but what prevents shu yun from being tier 3? I would not out him higher than tier 3, but I'm curious to the reasoning and thought process for his placement and really the placements in general.

Hello, I am an edh player and I really love Prime Speaker Vannifar and I would like anyone in charge of this list to look at my deck here : http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-true-food-chain/?cat=type&sort=cost I brewed her up in the most competitive way possible and combined the Protean Hulk combo and the Deadeye Navigator combo I believe this deck is competitive, maybe max power, idk

“In the context of having infinite mana, I'm saying that Oona (or any infinite mana/spell Commander) as a win condition in the Command Zone isn't necessary, as there should be a critical mass of tutors to the point that we should have a few in hand every game.”

I’m sorry, but this is just flat out as wrong as wrong can be. If you want to prove it to yourself, assume that 12 cards in your 99 are tutors or combo pieces. For simplicity, assume any 3 will do. Now assume you draw 13 or so cards (to represent the first few turns of a game + your opening hand). Now compare the probability of hitting 2 or more of your 12 (within the top 13 cards of your deck) to the probability of hitting 3 or more of your 12. The difference is significant, and doesnt even factor in colored mana challenges of casting 3 cards vs 2.

The difference is legit 1.36%. The difference between hitting 2 or more in 12 cards and 3 or more cards in 12 is 1.36%. Literally only case that matters is hitting 2 in 12 cards. If youre arguing a combo piece in the CZ vs in deck, CZ combos are favored in moderation. The main argument has always been mana efficiency and reducing dead cards. HD+muldrotha is a 2 card combo. it still doesnt make muldrotha favored.

The numbers are closer to 49% (to hit 2 or more out of 13) vs 19% (to hit 3 or more out of 13).

an edit to a previous comment of mine, I have completed the pg for my Prime Speaker Vannifar deck and it has been refurbished and a detailed description has been added. you can find the link here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/vannifar-evolution-101/?cb=1549830006

I'm really not all that impressed with vannifar, she's pretty cool, and she's strongish, but pod lines are convoluted and take up a decent amount of deckspace, and the hoping for her to make it through to turn 3-4 is a gamble and a half. Which line is considered the best right now? I've been using spellseeker lines for now because I dont have a TYE [rip]. Maybe she will be powered up in a later set, but as for now I think she is going to be more of a boogeyman than anything. On I'm working on a lavinia list, even though I already like shaper's enough but I guess he doesn't want to put it up on the list. When are you gonna start filling out links to some of the high power commanders, I remember most of the links and makers myself, but even just to have the unupdated old lists on here would be a boon to anyone trying to get info on their prospective commander. I'm free a lot so I have a bunch of time to make some lists that we are missing including the old ones [like Ramos and stuff] And shuyun isn't considered strong because even though in French he can insta you if he connects once, in multi he has to live and connect 3 times over the course of 3 turns, even if you make him infinitely big with dram scepter he still has to swing 3 times or you have to jump through extra hoops

I'm really not all that impressed with vannifar, she's pretty cool, and she's strongish, but pod lines are convoluted and take up a decent amount of deckspace, and the hoping for her to make it through to turn 3-4 is a gamble and a half. Which line is considered the best right now? I've been using spellseeker lines for now because I dont have a TYE [rip]. Maybe she will be powered up in a later set, but as for now I think she is going to be more of a boogeyman than anything. On I'm working on a lavinia list, even though I already like shaper's enough but I guess he doesn't want to put it up on the list. When are you gonna start filling out links to some of the high power commanders, I remember most of the links and makers myself, but even just to have the unupdated old lists on here would be a boon to anyone trying to get info on their prospective commander. I'm free a lot so I have a bunch of time to make some lists that we are missing including the old ones [like Ramos and stuff] And shuyun isn't considered strong because even though in French he can insta you if he connects once, in multi he has to live and connect 3 times over the course of 3 turns, even if you make him infinitely big with dram scepter he still has to swing 3 times or you have to jump through extra hoops

Hi Shammalamma, I'd like to say -- good question. Why are generals ranked as they are in this tier list? It seems strange that cards like Oloro - a classic pubstompy general isn't at the top tier, or the same with many other friendly decks.

This is designed as a guide for players on the most cutthroat decks available - abusing stax-based locks, infinite combos & game-winning strategies as fast as they can be assembled. Looking at some of the decklists in the top tiers will show you how crazy this can get - with the general in some cases (like General Tazri , Godo, Bandit Warlord , Sidisi, Undead Vizier ) just being used to tutor for a win condition.

Saitama (Shu-yun) is a one-punch machine gun. He's able to murder a player very quickly, with his own prowess meaning that cards like Stubborn Denial are more efficient negates. However, while he supports his own & is a very cool deck to play - he's not very competitively viable - as voltron strategies in this require three turns to hit three opponents generally. Whereas playing kiki-jiki and pestermite requires only one turn. Look at the speed of some of the 'flash-hulk' decks.

The generals are ranked as above with the card's effectiveness toward the strategy of the deck in mind and mostly based on the effectiveness/strength/consistency of the deck that it's paired with, rather than the colours that they provide.

Alright I know I sound like a broken record, but the description of the update says it all. I have worked hard to optimize the deck for play and have tested it intensely. I believe it deserves one final look. thegigibeast ShaperSavant tw0handt0uch LabManiac_Sigi. If I could have the spare time of any of you to take a little time to look this over, I would be very thankful. The deck has received it's fair share of criticism but I believe this should do it. You can find the link here. I believe that should do it. Once again, Cheers! D.F.

Hi DF. I can tell that you are passionate about your deck and have put a lot of time into developing it. I like that you have a variety of angles to play from. My concern is that in folding so many combos in, you are going to be carrying a lot of dead slots and cut into your interaction suite. I count

P Drake, bdouble, deadeye, shield w, sage, ornithopter, memnite, ezuri, W drake, t mage, tdon, twater minion, staff, gog, fatestitcher, archanist, exarch, hippocamp. These are all cards that arent great topdecks or in openers.

There’s also a few card assesments that indicate a bit of immaturity in the deck: things like not including Mystic Remora, quite possibly the most powerful card in the format, and opting for Arcane Denial over things like Delay.

I think continued development and live testing will present you with some good opportunities to see which lines arent as effective, and refine your deck so that it is more consistent yet carries less dead weight. Good luck, enjoy the journey!

Mystic Remora is the most powerful card in the format?

Yeah, here's what happens with that card pretty much every time I see it:

They play it, one other player plays maybe one noncreature spell in their turn cycle, then maybe another one or two next turn cycle, then they sacrifice it because they don't want to keep paying cumulative upkeep. That's not even Ancestral Recall , and Ancestral wouldn't even be the most powerful card in the format if it wasn't banned.

You say some really presumptuous things sometimes, honestly.

Remora is good, but I believe Mana Crypt is the best card in the format.

Alright, I have taken your advice to heart, tw0handt0uch the deck has been more finely tuned with the least amount of dead cards possible and has more mana abilites in the early game as well as plenty of disruption for 1 mana. Please re-look this over because this is Prime Speaker Vannifar 's capability. Big thanks to Soren841 for the testing.