How does Massacre Girl interact with cards such as Puppeteer Clique and Kaya's Ghostform?
Asked by Rasaru 4 years ago
Hello! I recently built a deck around Massacre and immediately ran into the following situation...
My board included Puppeteer Clique. **When Puppeteer Clique enters the battlefield, put target creature card from an opponent's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. It gains haste. At the beginning of your next end step, exile it. Persist (When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
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I played a Kaya's Ghostform on an opponent's Falkenrath Noble. **Enchant creature or planeswalker you control. When enchanted permanent is put into the graveryard or is exiled, return that card to the battlefield under your control.
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I played Massacre Girl, which cleared the board. **When Massacre Girl enters the battlefield, each other creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. Whenever a creature is put into the graveyard from the battlefield this turn, each creature other than Massacre Girl gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Now what?
In my mind (and because of my lack of experience) I thought that the delayed ability of Massacre would resolve. Then I would get my opponent's Falkenrath Noble, Puppeteer Clique would come back from the grave with a -1, -1 counter (since it hadn't died yet), which then would also allow me to play a creature card from my opponents graveyard to my battlefield (Puppeteer Clique's ability).
However, I was told that this was incorrect and that everyone that was returned to the battlefield would immediately be killed again. They explained that the -1, -1 counters that built up during MG's delayed ability was still on the board and would effect all entries that came into play that same turn.
Can someone confirm/clarify this for me?
Rhadamanthus Thanks for the advice and clarifications! One more question. You said, " It won't affect anything that enters the battlefield at a later point." This includes the same turn that Massacre Girl comes out?
February 21, 2020 12:25 p.m.
Rhadamanthus Additionally, I mentioned the wrong enchanment, it was actually Unholy Indenture
February 21, 2020 12:43 p.m.
king-saproling says... #4
Rhadamanthus is correct that previous resolutions of Massacre Girl's abilities will not impact creatures that enter the battlefield after those abilities have resolved. However, her second triggered ability (Whenever a creature dies this turn, each creature other than Massacre Girl gets -1/-1 until end of turn) is still in effect until the end of the turn. So if a creature dies during the turn, say after the initial wave of deaths and after some new creatures came in, it will then trigger the second ability and creatures will get -1/-1.
February 21, 2020 12:48 p.m.
king-saproling Okay, so the original -1,-1's that accrued before resolution disappears, new creatures are safe to enter, but can be affected by her second trigger (if a creature were to die), before the end of a turn. Got it! Thanks
February 21, 2020 12:55 p.m.
You actually asked a really complicated question and, based on your response, I don't think you totally got the answer from what was posted. Furthermore, Rhadamanthus's answer is correct in terms of how the rules work, but doesn't do a good job of explaining what happens in this situation.
I'm going to go over it in more detail.
Short answer:
Massacre Girl's Enters the Battlefield ability is a triggered ability. When it resolves it does two things: give every other creature currently on the board -1/-1, AND create a delayed triggered effect for the rest of the turn, that triggers when a creature dies, and will also give every other creature on the board -1/-1 when that delayed trigger resolves.
In the situation you describe, Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble WILL still die and you WON'T end up with them, or the creature that PC brought back, on the battlefield when the dust settles (probably).
Detailed Example:
The board is as follows: Puppeteer Clique on your side, and Falkenrath Noble enchanted with your Unholy Indenture under your opponent's control. I'm also going to assume there are some other creatures on the board and that at least one of them is a 1/1, because otherwise nothing would die to Massacre Girl's ability. To make this example run smoothly, I'm going to say this is a multiplayer game, and that your second opponent controls five 1/1 elf warrior tokens.
It's your turn. You play Massacre Girl. This happens, step by step:
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Nobody counters Massacre Girl. It resolves, then its ETB resolves, giving everything -1/-1.
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The five 1/1 Elf Warriors die as a State-Based Action. Before the next player gets priority, five of Massacre Girl's delayed triggers get put on the stack. Abilities on the stack resolve in First-In-Last-Out order, so I'm going to name these triggers M1 though M5, with M1 being the first on the stack. M5 will be the first to resolve.
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Falkenrath Noble's ability also triggers five times (F1 through F5). Your opponent controls these triggers. Because you are the active player (its your turn) your abilities went on the stack first. Your opponent chooses a target player to lose life for each trigger.
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F5 through F1 resolve. Your opponent gains 1 life and the targeted player loses 1 life, five times.
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M5 resolves, Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble get an additional -1/-1.
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Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble die as a SBA. Six abilities trigger from this: Unholy Indenture's ability, Puppeteer Clique's persist, two new Massacre Girl delayed triggers (M6&7), and two new Falkenrath Noble triggers that your opponent controls (F6&7).
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Again, your triggers go on the stack before your opponents, but you get to choose the order you want your triggers to resolve in. Lets say you stack them like this: Puppeteer, Unholy, M6 and M7 (M7 will resolve first), then your opponent's F6 and F7 go on after. (Your opponent's chooses targets now.)
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F7 and F6 resolve. Same as step 4.
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M7 and M6 resolve. There's no creatures left except Massacre Girl, so nothing happens.
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Unholy Indenture's trigger resolves and gives you Falkenrath Noble.
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Puppeteer Clique's Persist resolves and it comes back with a -1/-1 counter. It's ETB triggers and goes on the stack on top of everything else. You choose which creature you're targeting now.
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Let's say there's a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in your opponent's graveyard. Puppeteer Clique steals until the end step, so you figure you'll be able to get 7 cards off of it. PC's ETB resolves and put in into play under your control.
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The first four Massacre Girl triggers are still on the stack. M4 resolves, giving PC, FN, and Jin -1/-1.
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PC dies as a SBA. Your Falkenrath Noble triggers from this (Fa). Choose a player to target. Fa resolves, you drain them for 1.
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M3 resolves, giving FN and Jin -1/-1.
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FN dies as a SBA. It triggers itself (Fb). Repeat step 14.
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M2 and M1 resolve, giving Jin -1/-1 twice.
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Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is a 5/4 and has been given -4/-4. It dies as a SBA. It goes back to your opponent's graveyard because PC only exiles at the end step.
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Massacre Girl triggers one last time (M8), but the ability does nothing like in step 9.
And that's everything. As you can see, even though Massacre Girl's triggered ability only effects the creatures that are on the battlefield when the trigger resolves, the triggers resolve individually, and everything that comes into play in the middle of it will probably die too. Even stacking the triggers as well as possible back in step 7 wasn't enough to save a 5/4 in this example, and things will probably be even more hectic in a game with a clogged board full of creatures. (Maybe if you pulled someone's Emrakul, the Promised End, and there weren't too many creatures on the field, that might survive the massacre.)
Your friends were explaining it rather simply when they said the delayed triggers "built up" but in this instance that's a good way to look at it.
(Note: Any time I said "__ resolves," there was a chance for players to cast instants and activate abilities just before that happened. I left that out because this was complicated enough already.)
Hope this helps :)
February 22, 2020 10:05 a.m.
However, sonnet666, if there's only a single 1/1 on the battlefield, then you would be able to keep the stolen creatures.
In your detailed example, in step 2, only one M trigger would go on the stack due to only one 1/1 dying. This trigger would resolve in step 5, killing Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble. Careful stacking of the new triggers would have the new Massacre Girl triggers resolve before either Clique or Noble returns to the battlefield.
In this case, step 13 doesn't happen because there aren't any additional Massacre Girl triggers left to resolve. You would keep Puppeteer Clique, whatever it stole, and Falkenrath Noble.
So as long as the right arrangement of creatures are on the battlefield, this would work. It would have to be the right arrangement, however, as even a second 1/1 would kill off the Clique after it returned, which in turn would kill off the Noble.
February 22, 2020 4:32 p.m.
Sure, but based on how OP's friends were talking, it sounded like there were more than a few other creatures on the field.
"They explained that the -1, -1 counters that built up during MG's delayed ability was still on the board"
Nobody describes something as "built up" if there are three or less of that thing.
The point of the example was to show how the triggers from Puppeteer Clique and Unholy Indenture have to happen before any extra Massacre Girl triggers are cleared. I chose 5 1/1's because it was the simplest way to illustrate that.
February 22, 2020 10:47 p.m.
I understand that interpretation of the "-1, -1 counters built up" part. However, the way I interpreted it (and I assume Rhadamanthus did to, based on his response) was the friends being mistaken and thinking the -1/-1 was an ongoing effect that would affect anything that entered afterward as well, not a stack of triggers still waiting to resolve (especially given the incorrect wording of "counters").
Either way, my response was to show that there was still a way it would work, given the right conditions.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #1
Use double square brackets around a card's name to create a pop-up for reference. It's the easiest way to make sure everyone understands what's going on with your question (and you don't have to do all that extra typing): Massacre Girl, Puppeteer Clique, Kaya's Ghostform, Falkenrath Noble
First, there's a problem with your specific example: Kaya's Ghostform can only enchant a creature you control. Unless the "opponent's Falkenrath Noble" you're talking about is something you took from them with Puppeteer Clique or something else that gave you control, you can't put the Ghostform on it.
You had the right idea. The temporary -1/-1 effects (not counters) from Massacre Girl's triggered abilities won't affect creatures that enter the battlefield after the triggers resolve. If a resolving spell or ability changes the characteristics of objects on the battlefield (power, toughness, color, abilities, etc.) then the group of objects it will affect is locked in at the time the spell/ability is resolving. It won't affect anything that enters the battlefield at a later point.
The following is a quote from the relevant section of the Comprehensive Rules document:
611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began. If a single continuous effect has parts that modify the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects and other parts that don’t, the set of objects each part applies to is determined independently.
Example: An effect that reads “All white creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn” gives the bonus to all permanents that are white creatures when the spell or ability resolves—even if they change color later—and doesn’t affect those that enter the battlefield or turn white afterward.
Example: An effect that reads “Prevent all damage creatures would deal this turn” doesn’t modify any object’s characteristics, so it’s modifying the rules of the game. That means the effect will apply even to damage from creatures that weren’t on the battlefield when the continuous effect began. It also affects damage from permanents that become creatures later in the turn.
February 21, 2020 11:57 a.m. Edited.