When you cast triggers and counterspells
Asked by Mythwind 7 years ago
If I cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and my opponent plays Counterspell targetting it, do I still get to draw four cards?
When you cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth it's draw four triggered ability triggers and is put on the stack above it. Your opponent can then either cast Counterspell right away or let you draw the four cards. If they cast Counterspell right away, Kozilek will be put into your graveyard and it's shuffle ability will trigger. The overall effect will be that it shuffles your full graveyard into your library then you draw four cards, potentially drawing cards that had previously been in your graveyard. If instead they allow you to draw four cards first, they'll avoid you potentially drawing cards from your graveyard, and still have the opportunity to cast Counterspell to prevent Kozilek from hitting the battlefield, but they risk you drawing a Counterspell yourself, or otherwise being able to force your Kozilek through.
Note that this is different from enter the battlefield triggers, like Wasteland Strangler, which will not trigger if the creature spell gets countered.
March 24, 2018 7:18 p.m.
So casting the spell (the trigger ability activation) is different than, and not contingent in the spell being resolved?
March 24, 2018 9:18 p.m.
scotchtapedsleeves says... #4
I believe that the casting is the primary action of the spell, so the counterspell would essentially not let you cast it, making Kozilek's "when cast" ability not trigger.
March 24, 2018 11:08 p.m.
Yes, in that case, you still draw 4. Counterspell counters only spells, but not abilities, so the draw 4 effect will still resolve without a hitch. Remember, abilities on stack resolve independently of their source.
Neotrup's answer is the 100% full answer you want.
Mythwind, indeed, triggered abilities on the stack and their sources are completely independent. In order to counter both Kozilek and its draw 4 trigger, you need something like Summary Dismissal.
To correct LordMithos, the spell has to be on the stack before you can use Counterspell on it. In order for a spell to go on the stack, it means it had been fully cast.
To correct scotchtapedsleeves, there is really no such thing as a primary action of a spell and Counterspell does not stop you from casting.
March 25, 2018 2:15 a.m. Edited.
WillowtheCouncil says... Accepted answer #6
scotchtapedsleeves and LordMithos are dead wrong. Boza and Neotrup are absolutely correct.
When you cast Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, it goes onto the stack. Since it has been cast, the trigger condition of its ability triggers, and the ability is placed onto the stack.
The stack now looks like this:
- Triggered Ability: Draw Four Cards
- Kozilek
When your opponent casts Counterspell, targeting Kozilek, the stack now looks like this.
- Counterspell (targeting Kozilek)
- Draw Four Cards
- Kozilek
Counterspell resolves, countering Kozilek. Then you draw four cards from the already triggered ability, and then Kozilek has already been removed from the stack and nothing else happens.
Long story short, triggered abilities, even 'on cast' ones, are not tied to the original spell. Unless your opponent Stifles the draw trigger, their Counterspell won't do anything.
March 25, 2018 2:18 a.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #7
To "cast" a spell is to move it from the zone it is in to the stack and pay all associated costs. Cast triggers do not care about the spell resolving or else they would be ETB triggers on permananets or regular effects of instants or sorceries. 601 in the comprehensive rules explains casting spells. I am on my tablet or else I would link the relevant sections. (601.2 (no subsection) and 601.2i)
LordMithos says... #1
Nope. In order for a spell to be cast it has to fully resolve. Counterspell does not allow that and therefore is not cast.
March 24, 2018 6:44 p.m.