Question on cards like Berserk and the interaction of +1/+1 counters
Asked by jaguarruso 9 years ago
When a creature gets +X/+X from let's say a pump spell its base power and toughness is affected directly. Is this different than getting X +1/+1 counters put on it? Is its base power and toughness still the original base power and toughness but now it just gets +1/+1 counters affectings it's giving and receiving of damage?
Specifically, when I cast Berserk, which gives a creature +X/+0 where X is its power. A Llanowar Elf is a 1/1. With a Giant Growth it is a 4/4 so Berserk would give it +4/+0. But if I cast Bounty of the Hunt on it instead then it's a 1/1 with three +1/+1 counters or is it a 4/4? Has its base power and toughness technically changed?
There are multiple things that can define power and toughness, where base P/T are the values written on a creature card's lower right corner. Changing base P/T can only be done by cards specifically saying so (such as Turn to Frog). Characteristic-defining abilities (CDAs) are an exception to this, but that's not relevant to this question.
The creature's actual power and toughness are calculated based on the board state - whether there are effects that grant the creature a permanent bonus (like Goblin King gives other Goblins), temporary buffs from spells or abilities (such as Giant Growth), or +1/+1 counters.
Bounty of the Hunt's text is:
You may exile a green card from your hand rather than pay Bounty of the Hunt's mana cost.
Distribute three +1/+1 counters among one, two, or three target creatures. For each +1/+1 counter you put on a creature this way, remove a +1/+1 counter from that creature at the beginning of the next cleanup step.
Buffs stack, so if you cast Giant Growth and Bounty of the Hunt, your Elf is a +7/+7: 1/1 (base P/T) +3/+3 from Giant Growth, and it has 3 +1/+1 counters from Bounty of the Hunt.
To actually answer your question: The difference normally is that counters stay on the creature, while temporary buffs end at the end of turn. In this case, the effects are pretty much the same, except you could use it for cards like Hex Parasite.
Now, how Berserk changes things up depends on how you cast it, as layers work in timestamp order. Note that Berkserk is always applied before counters are taken into consideration.
You basically have these possibilties (I'm writing the order in which effects resolve, not when they were cast):
Giant Growth, Berserk: 8/4
Berserk, Giant Growth: 5/4
Bounty of the Hunt, Berserk; or Berserk, Bounty of the Hunt: 5/4
Giant Growth, Berserk, Bounty of the Hunt: 11/7
Berserk, Giant Growth, Bounty of the Hunt: 8/7
I hope there's no errors in here, someone may want to double-check my math and rules knowledge...
July 14, 2015 5:13 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #3
Berserk is a continuous effect produced by the resolution of a spell and not a static ability, and so the value X is calculated only once: at the resolution of the spell. X is the creature's power upon resolution of the spell, that includes power granted by counters. The layering system is there to calculate a creature's power and toughness (among its other characteristics) and spells like Berserk only care about the number at the end of that calculation, not where they end up in the layers after they would resolve.
- Giant Growth, Berserk: 8/4
- Berserk, Giant Growth: 5/4
- Bounty of the Hunt, Berserk: 8/4
- Berserk, Bounty of the Hunt: 5/4
- Bounty of the Hunt, Giant Growth, Berserk: 14/7
- Giant Growth, Bounty of the Hunt, Berserk: 14/7
The same goes for the last layer, inverting power and toughness.
- Fists of the Anvil, Inside Out, Berserk: 2/5
July 14, 2015 6:01 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
All +N/+N effects apply in the same sublayer, including counters and effects like Giant Growth and Berserk, meaning they're applied in timestamp order with respect to each other. FancyTuesday's summary of the results of different interactions is the correct one.
July 14, 2015 11:11 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #5
P/T changing effects are in layer 7c, P/T changing counters are in layer 7d, which I'm guessing is why BlueScope was confused. However I cannot for the life of me imagine a scenario where this is relevant because there are no effects that concern themselves with a creature's characteristics between layers, only the results.
I've dug around and the best reason I've found for why the layers are separated like this is because counters do not have time stamps, whereas the effects in 7c do and need to be applied in timestamp order.
121.1 A counter is a marker placed on an object or player that modifies its characteristics and/or interacts with a rule, ability, or effect. Counters are not objects and have no characteristics. Notably, a counter is not a token, and a token is not a counter. Counters with the same name or description are interchangeable.
July 14, 2015 3:24 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
Huh. If I ever knew that (counters being in a different sublayer), I must have forgotten it a loooong time ago.
July 14, 2015 3:36 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #7
Aye, it's not something that ever ever ever comes up. I did screw something up, however, when I brought up the P/T inversion layer.
Fists of the Anvil, Inside Out, then Berserk on a 1/1 would produce a 1/6.
July 14, 2015 3:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
Wouldn't Fists of the Anvil, Inside Out, Berserk produce a 1/10? I thought that the power that was used was was the power before the swap since it applies before the swap so all information it would get would be before the swap?
July 14, 2015 5:01 p.m.
lastdinosir says... #9
Negative. Again, we're being tripped up on the idea that Berserk can "see through" layers. All that matters is the creature's power at the time Berserk resolves, which in the example I gave would be 1. Then, after X is determined and Berserk resolves, it falls into layer 7c and is evaluated before Inside Out.
Now, if you hit the creature with Berserk before Inside Out resolves, it would see a power of 5 and you'd end up with a 1/10.
July 14, 2015 5:20 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
A resolving spell or ability that uses an object's characteristic to determine the outcome of an effect has to use the current value of that characteristic. Otherwise, a lot of stuff wouldn't work properly or in the expected way. In the Fists/Inside Out/Berserk situation, Berserk uses the creature's current power of 1 to calculate its own buff.
July 14, 2015 5:27 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #11
Also, I did not know I was logged into my old account on my phone. I'm learning lots of things from this question.
July 14, 2015 5:34 p.m.
@FancyTuesday: As you said in #5, I got confused by that... of course, during the resolution of any spell, the layers are already applied to the target creature to determine it's stats already...
As for Fists of the Anvil, Inside Out, Berserk - Fists turning the 1/1 into a 5/1, then Inside Out switching it to be a 1/5, then Berserk giving it +1/+0 (because it's power is 1), but when it's blended through the layer system, because the switch is still applying to the creature until end of turn, it's a 6/1 turned into a 1/6 until end of turn?
This is weird, but a lot of fun... made me understand the layer system a whole lot better!
FancyTuesday says... Accepted answer #1
Please link all cards you're asking about using TappedOut's card linking syntax. If you need help doing so check out the Formatting Tips Page here.
Berserk
Llanowar Elves
Giant Growth
Bounty of the Hunt
The base power and toughness does not change unless a card "sets" a creature's power and toughness, see cards like Humility or Lignify. +1/+1 counters augment, they do not set.
The effects in question do not rely on a creature's base power but rather their power. When Berserk check's the targets power it takes into account a target's base power, then buffs from effects and counters as per the layering system, finds the target's power at time of it resolving and adds to it that much power.
July 13, 2015 10:39 p.m.