Likeness Looter on High Fae Prankster
Asked by Caphir 9 months ago
Cardcombo:
Likeness Looter & High Fae Prankster
Since Likeness Looter copies a creature in your graveyard - a specific creature(?), not just an example of a creature in that graveyard - Likeness Looter should also have the power/defence of that specific creature.
For example, if I play High Fae Prankster and swap the Power from 1/4 to 4/1 and the creature gets killed and lands in my graveyard, the creature has still 4/1. Therefore, when I play likeness looter and it becomes the High Fae Prankster in my graveyard, it becomes a High Fae Prankster with 4/1.
Is that the correct application?
If not, could someone please cite the rules and maybe explain what I misunderstand.
Thank you very much in advance. I‘m looking forward to your answers.
wallisface High Fae Prankster has the "perpetually" Alchemy ability, which means that the changes continue when the affected card changes zones.
If Prankster perpetually becomes a 4/1, it will continue to be a 4/1 while in the graveyard, and that will be the P/T that Likeness Looter copies.
March 28, 2025 4:17 p.m.
Thank you very much.
Just for clarification, the same is also true, if High Fae Prankster exchanges its power with another creature and then is put into the graveyard, just to be copied by Likeness Looter afterwards, correct?
I just ask that much in detail, because on MTG Arena the card is not functioning that way, and I‘m about to report the issue.
March 28, 2025 4:28 p.m.
wallisface says... #4
Oh I just noticed that High Fae Prankster is an arena card, and uses the text "Perpetually". I don't play arena - but I assume that "Perpetually" changes stats permanently and for all zones (something unique to arena, as this would be unmanageable in paper).
I've just noticed legendofa confirms this above.
March 28, 2025 4:42 p.m. Edited.
Caphir Taking this step by step to make sure I get everything right:
-
High Fae Prankster enters and perpetually swaps its own power with Quakestrider Ceratops's power. Prankster is now a 12/4 in all zones for the rest of the game.
-
Prankster dies. It's still a 12/4 in the graveyard
-
You pay X=4 to make Likeness Looter a copy of the Prankster. Looter will be a 12/4.
So assuming there's no other power-setting effect, Looter should have the perpetually swapped P/T. How is Arena treating it?
March 28, 2025 5:02 p.m.
Thank you again for your time and step by step unfolding.
Arena only gets me a 1/4 default High Fae Prankster, although you can see the Prankster is in my graveyard with altered p/t.
I‘ve reported the issue today and hope it will be fixed soon.
I got a Faery Deck that performs well into Platinum rank and now I‘m looking to improve it. Since a few cards in this particular deck will only be valid in Alchemy till Fall 25, I hope it will be fixed soon.
March 28, 2025 9:22 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #7
Caphir: If that's what Arena is doing then that means the perpetual P/T change is applying in the P/T changing layer, not the copiable characteristics layer. This is the behavior we should have expected, so I would say Arena is handling the interaction correctly.
March 29, 2025 11:17 a.m.
Unfortunately, Alchemy cards run on their own rules that aren't explained to us for some reason, so we can't refer to an official rules document. But I don't see any reason to think why this isn't working as intended?
AFAIK, perpetual changes aren't copiable characteristics. I run Arming Gala and Scute Swarm in a Brawl deck on there. I just think of them functionally as dry-erase stickers.
It does change the P/T of the card though; it's not just a reminder that the change will apply as a creature permanent. Arvad, Weatherlight Smuggler in the graveyard stops being a target for, like, Forgefire Automaton if it gets too big.
Layers just really aren't sticking in my head. I read through them, understand them, then confuse them again within the month. Is there some change that could be applied to a card (or just a permanent, in paper) on a layer whereby it's a copiable characteristic for a Clone or something? Just so as I can test it to see if perpetual changes ever get copied.
I don't think there are any perpetual clones.
April 2, 2025 1:20 a.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #9
Yesterday: Besides perpetual cloning, the only other options I can come up with for effects that would perpetually change an object's copiable characteristics are becoming perpetually face-down, perpetually merged (via Mutate), perpetually transformed, or a P/T perpetually set by an "as this enters" or "as this is turned face up" effect.
April 2, 2025 9:41 a.m.
Rhadamanthus, well, I had a look through all the cards that use the word "Perpetual" for something that sets the P/T as it enters, and the closest things I can find are Resolute Rejection or Patriar's Humiliation on a Corrupted Shapeshifter, then using a Body Double to copy it from a graveyard. Would that work? I don't really understand the intricacies of what I'm testing.
April 2, 2025 4:18 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
Yesterday: No, Resolute Rejection and Patriar's Humiliation operate in the ability adding/removing layer. They don't change copiable values. Body Double-ing a Corrupted Shapeshifter who's been hit by one of those things will get you a normal Corrupted Shapeshifter with all its abilities. And if you were to reanimate that Shapeshifter, you would still choose P/T as it enters because the copiable values layer is the very first one, so the effect would be applied before the ability gets taken away in the ability adding/removing layer.
For the layer system, first you start with what's printed on the physical object, then apply other continuous effects in this specific order:
-
Rules and effects that modify copiable values
-
Control-changing effects
-
Text-changing effects (e.g. Magical Hack and friends)
-
Type-changing effects (including supertypes and subtypes)
-
Color-changing effects
-
Ability-adding/removing effects (including keyword counters and "can't have [ability]" effects)
-
P/T-changing effects
Layers 1 and 7 also have some sub-layers where certain more specific types of effects are applied in a particular order within those layers but those details aren't important here.
The key thing to understand is that a copy effect only brings over the actual printed characteristics of the original plus anything that is applying to the original in Layer 1. No other effects applying to the original will get copied.
April 2, 2025 5 p.m.
Cheers very much.
So, yeah, sorry for sorta hijacking the thread, Caphir. I guess I don't personally see that there is any reason to believe that this isn't Alchemy nonsense working as intended. But because the rules aren't laid out for us, that's still not entirely objective.
If anything comes of your report, I'd appreciate it if you shared it here for posterity.
If anyone remembers this thread a while down the line when/if they make a perpetual clone or something else that applies on layer 1, or if someone stumbles upon this on Q&A/Google search years from now under the same circumstances, I'd also appreciate if you'd post and tag me so as I can test it then. I'm interested, but I definitely won't remember.
April 3, 2025 12:31 a.m. Edited.
I‘m actually not sorry for kinda hijacking my thread.
You add nothing but confusion to my question, which is not yours, and you weren‘t helpful either. If you‘re able to, restrain yourself next time.
However, in the meantime, I made an effort and consulted the official rules, and what Rhadamantus meticulously stated is in fact true. Therefore, this thread would be short and helpful for every other person looking for an answer to this question, before you were starting adding to it.
Conclusion: Wizard made an error. When this bug is corrected, I can‘t tell.
For all the folks who are about to ask for a link to the rules, I‘m very confident, you or your AI of choice, if you are not, is able to give you the right direction, since we all know how the internet works.
Yes, I‘m salty, foremost about wizard, since it is not the first bug I discovered (in the last 14 days) however, since I was unsure, I was looking for a second opinion - not speculation. It‘s f***Ing embarrassing for a brand to not even get their very own special cards for Arena right and I loose some ranked games because of it. Why should somebody give them money for digital a money grab, I ask rethorically.
April 3, 2025 10:49 p.m.
In the future, please remember to click the green "Mark as Answer" button when your question is resolved - this signals the thread is closed. As you received an answer several days ago, I am going ahead and marking an answer on your behalf.
April 3, 2025 11:30 p.m.
Oh, for goodness sake. I'm getting too old for this 90's kid forum circus playground crap.
It's understandable that you're frustrated at a game, but I'd appreciate it next time if you didn't use that to throw a strop at people trying to help you.
For clarification, I was apologising for needing a refresher of layers in your thread, not for trying to use them to figure out the answer to your question.
Alchemy mechanics' rules aren't shared with us, so the only way to know how they're presumably meant to work in slightly niche circumstances like this is by testing it in those and similar circumstances, and looking for (in)consistencies about their interactions.
I know it sucks, but if you don't want discussion, speculation, and/or testing in your question, then I'm afraid the solution is to not ask about Alchemy cards. Or playtest or acorn cards, I guess.
Now maybe there's something I'm misunderstanding here, but I'm not sure why you've reached the conclusion you have. You've cited Rhadamanthus as being correct and then disagreed with him in your conclusion in the same post? Either way, if you get a reply or feedback from the Arena team from your report, I'd appreciate it if you posted it here for posterity.
People stumble upon these questions via Q&A and Google searches years after the fact, so it's helpful to get them answered fully in the thread, rather than having that person have to look up more threads or create a new one.
Likewise, for posterity, I'll post here again when/if we get a perpetual clone and I'm able to test the answer to your question conclusively.
April 4, 2025 4:05 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #16
Caphir: This isn't a bug. Based on the established system of layers for determining an object's characteristics and copiable values, Arena is handling the interaction correctly.
April 4, 2025 11:15 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #17
Since there don't seem to be any more follow-ups or corrections needed here, I've reselected the "Accepted answer" to a more accurate one.
wallisface says... #1
No. When a creature card is in a graveyard it no longer has any battlefield effects on it - it’s no longer a creature but a ”creature card”, and doesn’t have any alterations on it that may have existed on the battlefield.
Anything in the graveyard just has the stats they’re printed with.
March 28, 2025 4:06 p.m.