Lier and Adventure Spells
Asked by Chaospyke 5 months ago
I have been seeing a lot of people saying Lier, Disciple of the Drowned grants flashback to the adventure half of permanent cards in graveyards.
For Reference:Giant Killer
How it was explained to me was that AP moves a card with an adventure on to the stack. After it has been moved to the stack, and flashback has been paid, the game sees that on the stack a sorcery card was paid with flashback and some how that is not illegal after the fact.
I've gone over the Comp Rules and cannot find any way that this is legal. But I'm more interested in how someone could come to this conclusion of the rules in the first place.
I see that ruling on the gather.
The issue is that ruling flat out contradicts the ruling on adventure cards:
https://gatherer.wizards.com/ELD/en-us/14/giant-killer
(6/6/2025) An adventurer card uses only its non-Adventure characteristics in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases. For example, while it's in your graveyard, Jidoor, Aristocratic Capital is a colorless Town land card whose mana value is 0. It can't be the target of Sorceress's Schemes, which reads in part "Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard or exiled card with flashback you own to your hand."
Lier explicitly gives flashback to instant and sorcery cards. Cards with adventure are explicitly not instant or sorcery cards. The ruling on adventure explicitly states to ignore the alternative characteristics.
You can't target them with a card like Torrential Gearhulk and Past in Flames
also cannot target them. So how does lier get around this?
April 6, 2026 1:56 a.m.
DragonMaster420 says... #3
those other cards have to resolve their effects, and the viable options are locked in upon resolution. lier has a static ability, and doesn't check the characteristics of the card until you choose to cast it.
April 6, 2026 9:36 a.m.
Lier explicitly affects cards in the graveyard.
Its not like Jaya Ballard 's ult which changes where you can cast spells from. Lier grants a keyword ability to cards
And the flash back rules state that its a keyword with two parts; one of which is present in the graveyard.
702.34a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard and another that functions while the card is on the stack. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may cast this card from your graveyard if the resulting spell is an instant or sorcery spell by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.” Casting a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
By the ruling of adventures, Lier can't give them Flashback in the graveyard. And without having flashback in the graveyard, how can they legally be put on to the stack?
April 7, 2026 12:56 p.m.
DragonMaster420 says... #5
take it up with wotc. they said it works, so it works. your question has been answered.
April 7, 2026 5:24 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #6
Apologies for any typos in the rules citations below, I'm having trouble with copy/pasting for some reason and had to type them out manually.
It's due to the interaction of a few different rules around how you determine the legality of casting a spell and specific exceptions built into certain mechanics to make common interactions work properly.
The following are part of the detailed rules for Adventurer cards, explaining that you decide how you want to try to cast it before you determine legality and then use the characteristics of that option to make the determination:
715.3 As a player plays an adventurer card, the player chooses whether they play the card normally or as an Adventure.
715.3a. When casting an adventurer card as an Adventure, only the alternative characteristics are evaluated to see if it can be cast.
So if you want to see whether it's legal to cast an Adventure from your graveyard, first you start with that option and use the Adventure characteristics to see if you can actually do it. The following rule from the process of casting spells is what gives the Adventure flashback in the case of Lier, Disciple of the Drowned, specifically the part that says "Continuous effects that would apply to that object once it has those characteristics are also considered". One of the CR's built-in examples happens to include an adventurer card.
601.3e Some rules and effects state that an alternative set of characteristics or a subset of characteristics are considered to determine if a card or copy of a card is legal to cast. These alternative characteristics replace the object's characteristics for this determination. Continuous effects that would apply to that object once it has those characteristics are also considered.
Example: Garruk's Horde says, in part, "You may cast creature spells from the top of your library." If you control Garruk's Horde and the top card of your library is a noncreature card with morph, you may cast it using its morph ability.
Example: Melek, Izzet Paragon says, in part, "You may cast instant and sorcery spells from the top of your library." If you control Melek, Izzet Paragon and the top card of your library is Giant Killer, an adventurer creature card whose Adventure is an instant named Chop Down, you may cast Chop Down but not Giant Killer. If instead you control Garruk's Horde and the top card of your library is Giant Killer, you may cast Giant Killer but not Chop Down.
April 8, 2026 6:24 p.m.
I guess I would need to know the exact steps for casting a spell. It appears like you are saying, that a player decides to cast an adventure from their graveyard that doesn't have flashback since its a creature card in the graveyard, but then it gains flashback on the stack.
My issue with this is "To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack." from
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. Any continuous effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as you start casting it begin as it is put on the stack (see rule 611.2f). Any one-shot effects that cause the spell to gain abilities as you cast it apply as it is put on the stack (see rule 610.5). The spell remains on the stack until it resolves, it’s countered, or a rule or effect moves it elsewhere.
So the first part in proposing the casting of a spell is to move it from where its at. Adventure cards are creatures in the graveyard, but then instant/sorceries on the stack i.e. not the graveyard. Where in that process did the card gain flashback? Or where in that process was the card an instant or sorcery in the graveyard for Lier to give it flashback?
As for 601.3e, that should not apply to Lier, because Lier does not grant a player the ability to cast spells from the graveyard. It gives cards in the graveyard a keyword ability. 601.3e would matter for Jaya Ballard whose wording is "You may cast instant and sorcery spells from your graveyard. If a spell cast this way would be put into your graveyard, exile it instead."
April 8, 2026 7:47 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
Things that happen "as" you're taking an action happen as part of the action and before it completes. The choice to cast the adventure part of an adventurer card happens "as a player plays" it, meaning it's a decision you make before the card actually moves to the stack in the first part of the casting process. 601.3e makes a specific exception for mechanics that tell you to use an alternative set of characteristics to determine casting legality. The card gains flashback as it moves to the stack from the last sentence of 601.3e: "Continuous effects that would apply to that object once it has those characteristics are also considered". There's no "in-between zone" that the card is in while it's moving from the graveyard to the stack, so if it's not on the stack yet that means it's still in the graveyard and gets flashback. I don't like it either, but this is how the rules cause these weird effects to interact.
Note that several adventurer cards wouldn't be able to function properly without the exception granted by 601.3e. Consider something else about Giant Killer mentioned in the CR's example: Chop Down is an instant but Giant Killer itself doesn't have flash. The card in your hand only has Giant Killer's characteristics, so if the rules required evaluating the legality of casting from your hand before considering Chop Down's characteristics, you would only be able to cast Chop Down at sorcery speed, since there would otherwise be no rule or effect allowing you to cast Giant Killer at instant speed. Also consider a card like Midgar, City of Mako. If you had to make the legality determination for casting Reactor Raid based on Midgar's characteristics, you wouldn't be able to start casting Reactor Raid if you'd already played a land this turn.
If I remember correctly, earlier versions of the rules that might not have worked this way had to be changed to solve some issues with modal double-faced cards, most notably an unintended interaction that caused a problem in Modern where people would cascade into Valki, God of Lies and then get to cast the Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor side for free.
April 9, 2026 10:36 a.m.
DragonMaster420 says... #9
Rhadamanthus: an answer has been up for 7 days. could you please select it to move this to the "answered" section?
April 11, 2026 12:55 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
There were several follow-ups, I'm giving it some more time.
April 13, 2026 9:32 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
Chaospyke: Since there don't seem to be any more follow-ups, I marked one of the more detailed responses as the "Accepted answer" so this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. Feel free to respond with any more follow-up questions you may have.
DragonMaster420 says... #1
the rulings are on the gatherer.
https://gatherer.wizards.com/TDC/en-us/157/lier-disciple-of-the-drowned
(10/2/2025) Lier's last ability allows you to cast adventurer cards in your graveyard as Adventures and omen cards in your graveyard as Omens using the flashback it grants. This is because the alternative characteristics of those cards are considered when determining whether or not those spells can legally be cast. Note that only the Adventure or Omen can be cast this way. For example, if you control Lier and you have Bonecrusher Giant in your graveyard, you can cast Stomp with flashback, but not Bonecrusher Giant.
April 4, 2026 12:36 p.m.