killing a planeswalker before it's ability goes off?
Asked by miracleHat 11 years ago
My opponent plays a Liliana of the Veil and when it enters the battlefield, i Lightning Bolt it. My opponent says I couldn't do ti since the liliana ability had to be used once before it died. I said no and we were Standstill . If i am wrong, then too bad for me, so please answer the question to have proof that I was right.
You're lightning bolting as an instant, going on the stack. It kills LIliana before an ability can be used.
October 29, 2013 9:19 p.m.
You can't do anything in the game of Magic: the Gathering until you receive priority. After Liliana of the Veil
resolves, your opponent has priority. He can do whatever he wants with that priority, including activating one of Liliana of the Veil
's abilities. Your opponent, as the active player, retains priority even after the activation of said ability, and you can only respond once he/she passes priority, at which time you may finally cast spells or activate abilities.
116.1. Unless a spell or ability is instructing a player to take an action, which player can take actions at any given time is determined by a system of priority. The player with priority may cast spells, activate abilities, and take special actions.
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that players mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.
October 29, 2013 9:25 p.m.
quadspell1 says... #4
Google says a similar question was asked here before. here
October 29, 2013 9:26 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
You let Lilly resolve so the active player has priority. Unless he casts another spell before using her +1 and has to pass to let that ability resolve since loyalty abilities can only be activated on an empty stack then you never have priority to cast and can't bolt her before he activates the +1. Now that timing is out of the way, loyalty counters are added or removed as a cost of the ability not as an effect so if she was +1 she has 4 loyalty before your bolt resolves. The only people who let Mind Sculptor be killed by bolt were people who didn't know better and they don't deserve to have a Mind Sculptor.
October 29, 2013 9:27 p.m.
Hernandez1993 says... #6
Planeswalker abilities are like a sorcery. An instant (lightning bolt) hits first.
October 29, 2013 9:27 p.m.
smash10101 says... #7
Here is how it works:
Opponent casts Liliana of the Veil , passes priority. You also pass priority. It resolves. Opponent then has priority over an empty stack. They may now use a loyalty ability of a plainswalker, use an activated ability of any other permanent they control, cast a spell, or play a land. If they do any of these (other than play a land), they must pass priority before it will resolve. This means that they can use lili's -2 (or +1) before you get a chance to bolt her. You can still bolt her before it resolves, but it will already be on the stack.
tl;dr: No, you can't.
October 29, 2013 9:27 p.m.
Whyyy does no one other than me feel the need to cite Comprehensive Rules entries
IT ANSWERS ALL THE THINGS
October 29, 2013 9:30 p.m.
Yeah, I'm wrong. Jimhawk is correct by stating priority. Sorry for the confusion!
October 29, 2013 9:37 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #10
How do people play this game with no understanding of priority lol
October 29, 2013 9:45 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #11
Jimhawk is on the money here. The Planeswalker's ability resolves first. It doesn't have to be used once before it dies, but if your opponent wants to, there's not a whole ton you can do about it.
October 29, 2013 9:45 p.m.
Hernandez1993 says... #12
I forgot about priority.lol. ya if u let the planeswalker resolve u no longer have priority
October 29, 2013 9:49 p.m.
smash10101 says... #13
Jimhawk: because for something simple like this, I don't see the need to go find the section on priority and quote it when a plain english version does just as well. If an argument started, then I would get out the rule book. Yet somehow you still ninja'd me.
October 29, 2013 9:54 p.m.
Just chiming in to say that Jimhawk and Gidgetimer are correct. The active player (the player who played a planeswalker) may activate one of the planeswalker's abilities immediately after the planeswalker enters, before there is an opportunity for another player to Lightning Bolt the planeswalker.
October 29, 2013 10:02 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
Yeah I feel the same way that the comp rules aren't necessary when a simple explanation will do but it seems that either people are asking really tricky questions tonight or else in a rush to get "moar points" people who are not sure of the answer are starting to trickle over here and try to answer questions. I'm unsure why so many people have been worried about their ranking lately and I hope that the spurt of lots of wrong answers on Q&A pages don't lead to them restricting who can post answers since I really like answering questions. It helps get a good understanding if I try to explain stuff to people.
October 29, 2013 10:02 p.m.
But the CR is so easy to access and cite that I don't know why people don't just use it. It's like not using your blinker when changing lanes!
October 29, 2013 10:13 p.m.
@Jimhawk: Because many people find the comprehensive rules really dense in places. It's like reading a reference rather than a tutorial.
October 29, 2013 10:18 p.m.
but Lightning Bolt deals damage to CREATURE or PLAYER... NOT PLANESWALKER...
Unless I missed something entirely.... Planeswalkers are not creatures, or players.... so it is an illegal target... therefore fizzle....
October 29, 2013 10:24 p.m.
@Nick, Casual Strategist: If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you may (upon the damage being dealt, not upon targeting) redirect that damage to a planeswalker that player controls.
October 29, 2013 10:25 p.m.
and that's the part i missed entirely... LOL. nvm my comment then!
October 29, 2013 10:28 p.m.
It's already been answered, but just remember that a planeswalkers loyalty abilities don't use the stack and therefore can't be responded to. The reason the card states that you can activate it's abilties only any time you could cast a sorcery is because casting a sorcery spell follows the same rules in that you must have priority and the stack must be empty. I got confused on the same thing thinking I could Hero's Downfall a planeswalker before my opponent activated one of its abilities.
October 29, 2013 11 p.m.
They use the stack like any other activated ability... costs are paid when the ability is put on the stack, the ability resolves as it leaves the stack. Even loyalty abilities which would otherwise not use the stack (by virtue of being mana abilities) are specifically indicated as using the stack by the rules for mana abilities.
October 29, 2013 11:05 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #24
Leafy024 - that's incorrect. Loyalty abilities are activated abilities and use the stack like anything else. The thing that tricks most people out here is that the act of removing or adding loyalty counters to a PW is part of the cost of putting the ability on the stack, and that can't be responded to.
October 29, 2013 11:09 p.m.
Hernandez1993 says... #25
October 30, 2013 3:03 a.m.
smash10101 says... #26
yes, though the loyalty counters will still be added or removed to pay for it.
October 30, 2013 3:05 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #27
The fact that so many responders to this topic are strongly confused about the rules tells me that Jimhawk quoting directly from the CR to settle the question was a good call.
October 30, 2013 9:55 a.m.
darkmist29 says... #28
I just wanted to reinforce the right answer on here. Not that it hasn't been answered already.
The short answer: Upon resolving Liliana of the Veil , an opponent's Lightning Bolt cannot stop you from activating one of Liliana's abilities after she resolves.
Therefore, in general, a Planeswalker that resolves can almost always activate an ability before removal spells are cast on it.
Just a bit of detail. If you cast Liliana of the Veil, Lightning Bolt can't target it because there is nothing to target yet and therefore nothing to damage. Liliana is just a spell before it resolves. You can, however, use a counter-spell if you don't want them to resolve an ability even once, guaranteed (although, they may have a counter-spell too).
After the spell resolves the same player still has priority, especially since Lightning Bolt can't respond to the spell itself. (After casting Liliana of the Veil as a spell, the player technically does have to pass priority once they don't have anymore spells they want to play. But, again, Liliana of the Veil cannot be targeted by a Lightning Bolt yet - so it's irrelevant, but can be confusing if you were thinking that Liliana can be damaged there in the air as a spell.) There are also no "comes into play" effects on Liliana of the Veil, so nothing to respond to there either.
In order for the opponent to cast Lightning Bolt, the player must pass priority. If the player passes priority after Liliana of the Veil resolves, the opponent can play Lightning Bolt, and in that case, Liliana of the Veil cannot put an ability on the stack because the abilities are sorcery speed (played like sorcery spells). In that case, Liliana of the Veil waited too long to use her abilities, and gave the opponent his chance to deal with her. That can happen if you cast her before attacking (first main phase) and you expect her to be there on your second main phase.
The person playing Liliana of the Veil will generally see that their opponent has the mana open for a Lightning Bolt, so they will have to choose whether or not they give/pass priority to the opponent and give them the chance to cast anything. They will also have to have foresight and consider the possibility that Liliana of the Veil could survive a Lightning Bolt if they use the +1 ability instead of the -2. If a player wants Liliana to be able to survive a Lightning Bolt, they can activate her +1 immediately. They have that option. Unless a Planeswalker spell is countered right away, the caster almost always has the chance to play one ability before any removal can be played.
And on the flip side. If you are holding Lightning Bolt and are expecting Liliana of the Veil, you have to wait until you are passed priority if they cast her, and therefore have to consider that there is a good chance that one of Liliana's abilities will resolve. If they discard one of your cards, you can use Lightning Bolt to bring her down to 1 loyalty. If they make you sac a creature, you can remove her from play. If they pass priority to you without playing one of her abilities, you have the chance to Lightning Bolt her without giving them a chance to use one of her abilities.
March 18, 2014 5:33 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #29
I, too, enjoying bumping month old threads to show I have knowledge of the basic concepts of MTG.
March 18, 2014 5:59 p.m.
darkmist29 says... #30
Just wanted to put something down for people like me who were getting this link searching for planeswalker rules. It would be a lame way to show off knowledge if that was what I was doing. I also just enjoy writing. Check out my deck updates. It's a little over the top.
March 19, 2014 11:58 a.m.
Actually, TurboFagoot, I appreciate that darkmist29 made the post. He clarified the issue in an in depth manner without being confusing. It was the most clear and comprehensive answer in this thread. I also came here through googling planeswalker rules.
March 21, 2014 9:08 a.m.
sirplayalot11 says... #32
After reading a few of these things, I just want to make one thing clear, the planeswalker ability goes on the stack and does not, I repeat, DOES NOT resolve immediately, just like any other activated ability, you can respond to it. So if they +1 her(+1 is a cost, so that will happen no matter what, but not the ability itself), and your only card in hand is a lightning bolt, you can say in response, I cast lightning bolt and redirect to liliana of the veil(or just your opponent or a creature if you feel like).. Because he had to +1 her to even activate the ability, she will be at 4, but you did get to bring her down to 1 loyalty counter and not lose any cards to her effect.
December 11, 2014 1:11 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #33
Check the post dates, that was settled a long time ago.
miracleHat says... #1
Part of my reasoning was that when Jace, the Mind Sculptor was out with Lightning Bolt . everybody would immediately bolt it before any ability went off. so i was just wondering.
October 29, 2013 9:16 p.m.