How exactly does Krark's Thumb works with flips?
Asked by Bathory 12 years ago
Maybe it seems like a stupid question to makle, but I saw a bunch of decks which used Mirror Gallery with Krark's, and well... does the second Krark's Thumb still have effect?
It looks awkward to think "yes", since you're flipping two coins already, but literaly it could be understood as the second Krark's interferes on the last coin flipped.
Thanks~~
and if you wanted to be silly, you could use Phyrexian Metamorph and have another 4 more copies to get 256 flips.
October 3, 2012 7:47 p.m.
It would be similar to the Doubling Season interaction with planeswalkers and such.
You have a replacement effect. So lets say you have two Krark's Thumbs. and are required to flip a coin:
The first replacement effect sees that you are going to flip a coin. It tells you to flip two. The second one sees that you are going to flip two coins and it tells you to flip a third. (Note, if it said flip twice that many, it would be four coins.) So basically each Krark's thumb is an extra chance for the flip to go in your favor.
October 3, 2012 7:49 p.m.
And then use Phantasmal Image copying the metamorph and get 4096 flips.
October 3, 2012 7:53 p.m.
Since having 1 out doesn't cause a loop - as in, I'm going to flip a coin - wait flip 2 coins...ok, going to flip 2 coins, here goes one...wait! flip 2 coins instead, loop, loop, loop.
Then I would think having 2 of those card:Krark's Thumb's in play wouldn't add anything new. The text and wording is the same. And since it doesn't trigger when going to flip two coins only when going to flip one coin, then multiple instances shouldn't add coin flips.
That's what makes sense to me...
October 3, 2012 7:54 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #6
It's a replacement effect, not a triggered ability (indicated by the word "instead." Each one will have its effect and then it's done. See my original answer for what would actually happen.
October 3, 2012 7:56 p.m.
Yeah, I agree with Arachnarchist, but I have to tell that JasonMB sounds pretty convincing too.
October 3, 2012 8:03 p.m.
You forgot Sculpting Steel ! Would you get a warning for stalling at that point? Or can a judge do nothing to stop you?
October 3, 2012 8:44 p.m.
Your opponent would probably just let you get heads, that's it.
October 3, 2012 8:47 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #11
I would guess the judge could stop you after you have flipped both a heads and a tails, as any following flips would not add anything.
October 3, 2012 8:51 p.m.
What about the Phantasmal Image copying Phyrexian Metamorph . Doesn't the metamorph become a non-creature artifact, considering the thumb isn't? So Phantasmal Image wouldn't be able to copy it. Just wondering...
October 3, 2012 9:53 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #14
Arachnarchist's answers are the correct ones.
If multiple replacement effects could apply to an event, then the affected player or controller of the affected object decides what order they apply. If, after applying the first one, the result is an event that the next one could also apply to, then it does get applied, and so on down the line. A replacement effect can only be applied to a single event (or that event as modified by other effects) once.
Applying card:Krark's Thumb to a single coin flip creates two coin flips. Each of those flips is an event that another Thumb can apply to. The end result is that with two Thumbs, a single coin flip turns into 4 flips instead.
Phantasmal Image can only copy creatures. If Phyrexian Metamorph is copying Krark's Thumb, then the Metamorph copy isn't a creature, because Thumb isn't a creature.
October 4, 2012 12:21 a.m.
Question: If the coin flip does not go in your favor, could you exile the spell with Nivmagus Elemental ? Or does the coin flip only happen if the spell resolves?
October 4, 2012 3:19 a.m.
@samj : That would depend on the card. If the flip was part of the cost then you could exile the spell with Nivmagus Elemental , but usually the flip is part of the ability of the spell. Therefore, by the time you start flipping, the spell is already resolving and it is too late to exile it with Nivmagus Elemental .
October 4, 2012 5:21 a.m.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but card:Krark's Thumb, says, "instead flip 2 coins". As such, unlike Doubling Season , it does not double the number of coins to be flipped, it simply turns the effect into 'flip 2 coins'.
Having 2 in play when you are to flip a coin would cause both to replace the effect with "flip 2 coins". You chose the order for the event to be replaced. The first card:Krark's Thumb would cause the event to be turned into "flip 2 coins", then the second would replace the event but it would still become "flip 2 coins". The end result should be that the player only flips 2 coins.
Note: The second replacement to occur does not care that the event was already replaced, nor does it care what the event was turned into. It simply replaces the event with what the cards says to replace it with, which is "flip 2 coins, and select one", not "flip double the number of coins"
October 4, 2012 8:20 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... #19
Ray. It replaces each individual flip with flip two coins. So the first changes "flip a coin" into "Flip a coin, flip a coin. Ignore one." Then the second changes each individual flip to "flip two coins (or flip a coin, flip a coin) ignore one, Flip two coins (or flip a coin, flip a coin) ignore one.
They do work to get 16 flips with 4 thumbs, with all but one ignored.
October 4, 2012 8:58 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
Like I explained in my response, applying one Thumb to a coin flip event creates 2 coin flip events instead, just like it says on the card. Each of those flips would then be replaced if there were another Thumb, resulting in a total of 4 flips. The reason the card isn't written to say "double the number of coins" is because then fitting in the language about ignoring one of the results would be really awkward.
Note that because of the "ignore one" part of all this, you end up ignoring one whole set of 2 flips, and one flip from the set you didn't ignore, so only one coin flip will end up getting counted after it's all over.
October 4, 2012 9:59 a.m.
Except that the replacement from the second card:Krark's Thumb is only supposed to replace the original event. By having it create 2 coins flips for each of the replaced coin flips, it is replacing 2 separate events created by the original replacement. This is not how multiple replacements work.
For it to properly work the way you are saying it does, there should to be an errata stating "... instead flip double that number of coins, ignore all but one flip per coin that was to originally be flipped.". To my knowledge, there has been no such errata.
October 4, 2012 10:01 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #22
The way we explain it is exactly how multiple replacement effects work, and the following rule is the reason:
616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event.
October 4, 2012 10:08 a.m.
Except that does not apply in this case, as the replacement was already applicable and being applied to the original event.
The rule 616.2 would explain what would happen in an event such as having two different replacement events, such as "If a creature would die, instead remove all damage from that creature, and that creature's controller sacrifices a land", and another "If a land would be put in a graveyard, instead that land's controller exiles a non-land permanent he or she controlls".
In the case of the thumbs, the event from the first thumb is not what is making the replacement from the second applicable. It is only the original event causing a replacement of "flip 2 coins". The replacement effect does not get altered, or reapplied by the fact that there has been another replacement.
October 4, 2012 10:24 a.m.
hunter9000 says... #24
@Rayenous, when a replacement effect replaces an event, it can create a new event that also meets the conditions of another ability. The first thumb replaces the flip event with a modified flip event, but the modified event still meets the conditions of the second thumb, so the second thumb will also replace it.
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that cant be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.
@mistory, Phantasmal Image couldn't copy a Phyrexian Metamorph that is a copy of a card:Krark's Thumb, the Image can only copy creatures.
October 4, 2012 10:36 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #25
@Rayenous: If applying a replacement effect to an event made all the other applicable effects for that original event "give up", then your "double the number" templating wouldn't work either. It would also mean multiple Parallel Lives , for example, wouldn't quadruple/octuple/etc. token effects, which is a well-known interaction. Because of 616.2, the second Thumb is applicable to the event as modified by the first Thumb.
October 4, 2012 10:46 a.m.
@Rhadamanthus
Please don't read into what I said, or put words in my mouth. I never said anything would "give-up". I stated that is should replace the entire event, regardless of what the event has been changed into. Your rule # 616.2 did not effect what I had said in any way whatsoever, and does not expelain the 2 Thumb scenario.
@hunter9000
Thank you! This is the explanation that makes the 2 thumb scenario work the way that others have said it should. Their explanations and rules quoted, however, were not accurate without this information.
Arachnarchist says... Accepted answer #1
card:Krark's Thumb causes a replacement effect which replaces each flip with two flips and then it's controller, chooses which flip to use. Each thumb would replace each flip with two so, with the full four out, a single flip would turn into 16 flips with you choosing which to use.
October 3, 2012 7:42 p.m.