Effects on the stack...again
Asked by insertcleverid 9 years ago
I know that once an effect is on the stack, that effect will resolve regardless of what happens to the source. For example, you attack with a Flying Men and I tap Royal Assassin targeting them. In response, you Murderous Cut the Assassin. Stack resolves, assassin dies, flying men die, we move to blocks.
But I was listening to a mtg podcast and they were discussing Tail Slash, saying that it was susceptible to something I've never heard of, "Response Removal." They didn't elaborate but from the context it sounds like your opponent could remove the "target creature you control" in response to Tail Slash going on the stack and then it would somehow fail, leaving their creature untouched.
What is happening to produce a different result in the Tail Slash scenario, and what are the rules that distinguish the two situations?
Royal Assassin's effect says "destroy target creature." if the assassin is no longer in play when the effect resolves, the targeted creature is still destroyed. if the targeted creature is no longer in play when the assassin's ability resolves, the ability would fizzle.
Tail Slash has two targets, your creature and theirs. if your creature is no longer in play when tail slash resolves, the spell fizzles because it no longer has both legal targets.
April 17, 2015 10:59 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
Note, however, that a response that reduces the power of the first target creature will reduce the damage dealt; the damage is calculated when the spell resolves, not when it is cast.
April 17, 2015 10:59 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
@shuflw: A spell or ability only fizzles if all of its targets become illegal. If at least one target is legal, the spell or ability resolves and does as much as it can.
April 17, 2015 11 a.m.
Epochalyptik: you're right, i mistyped in my haste to beat you to an answer. :P
however, " If the first target creature is no longer on the battlefield, its last known information will be used to determine the quantity and the kind of damage (lifelink, deathtouch, etc.)." is incorrect. if your creature is gone when Tail Slash resolves, it will no longer deal damage.
per Tail Slash's gatherer ruling: "If either creature is an illegal target as Tail Slash tries to resolve, the creature you control wont deal damage."
April 17, 2015 11:04 a.m.
JustLikeFM says... #6
Daaamn Shuflw, I just logged in for the first time in years to correct that mistake :P
April 17, 2015 11:08 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
That's interesting, but it seems to be inconsistent with previous precedents for handling damage abilities. I wonder what the logic is.
For example, Prodigal Pyromancer will still deal its damage if it dies.
Maybe the LKI rule only applies to abilities that originate from the source of the damage? I'll do some checking.
April 17, 2015 11:21 a.m.
insertcleverid says... #8
This extremely interesting. Epochalyptik, I take your word as gospel when it comes to rules. The podcast I heard this on was Limited Resources' most recent episode. It was Marshall who mentioned this, and his co-host is Luis Scott Vargas, who did not correct him. Usually the two will go really deep on rules.
April 17, 2015 11:24 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Well, the Gatherer ruling is pretty clear in this case.
I think I remember something about the rules not allowing an illegal target to perform actions, so (if I recall correctly in that matter) it does make sense that the spell would have no effect.
April 17, 2015 11:27 a.m.
insertcleverid says... #10
Ah, my last post makes no sense per the last 3 comments to be posted since I started writing. (Got pulled away in the middle).
I wonder if its the same mechanism that reduces the damage delt should the creature's power be lowered, but that only creates more questions. I didn't think a creature's power changed just because it changed zones. I'm specifically thinking of Lord of Extinction as it's ability works even when its in the graveyard.
April 17, 2015 11:35 a.m.
insertcleverid says... #11
What about Spikeshot Elder? Does that deal damage if it goes to the graveyard?
April 17, 2015 11:37 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
Well, that part isn't highly relevant (although I thought it was when I posted my first response). What you're talking about is using a card's LKI to determine the amount of damage dealt and the nature of that damage. LKI can only apply when the object is allowed to perform an action, but isn't in the expected zone.
In this case, the rules prevent an illegal target from performing an action, so that target's LKI is irrelevant.
April 17, 2015 11:38 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #13
Spikeshot Elder will still deal damage because it's the source and is not a target.
April 17, 2015 11:39 a.m.
the pyromancer would deal damage because its ability is "deal 1 damage" and not "deal damage equal to its power." if the creature dealing damage "equal to power" is no longer a legal target, then there is no power to check when looking for an amount of damage to deal.
there is a similar gatherer ruling on Arena from 2006, so the precedent has been set for some time. i'd be interested to hear the actual phrasing from the comprehensive rules if you're able to find anything with more official wording.
April 17, 2015 11:43 a.m.
wow, and now Spikeshot Elder really confuses me. that seems to go completely against the rulings on the other cards.
April 17, 2015 11:46 a.m.
"LKI can only apply when the object is allowed to perform an action, but isn't in the expected zone.
In this case, the rules prevent an illegal target from performing an action, so that target's LKI is irrelevant."
this makes sense in terms of the rules, but it isn't very intuitive. i would think Spikeshot Elder would not be able to deal damage after dying, in the same way Mogg Fanatic is no longer able to sac for its ability with combat damage on the stack. different rules i know, but similar in terms of being able to grok.
April 17, 2015 11:51 a.m.
JustLikeFM says... #18
Well I never thought this was weird as I started with Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013, which has this card: Prey Upon
It works the exact same way as Tail Slash. It kind of makes intuitive sense.
April 17, 2015 12:03 p.m.
TheRedMage says... Accepted answer #19
This took me more than it should have to completely figure out :)
112.7a - Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time wont affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone its expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
The two things to take away from this are:
- There is no analogous of this rule for spells. Only abilities can use LKI! If one of the targets of a spell attempts to do something it cannot (i.e. bacause it's not there anymore) it just won't.
- LKI will only be used to replace information about the source of the ability.
So that's what's going on. Spikeshot Elder will work that way because the ability will check what's going on upon resolution, notice its source is missing, and use last known information. Tail Slash won't because it's not an ability.
April 17, 2015 12:09 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #20
Spells can use LKI, and some of them have to in order to work properly (Grisly Spectacle, Fling, etc.). The key concept behind the answer to this question is the fact that a spell or ability can't perform actions on an illegal target or cause an illegal target to perform any actions.
Epochalyptik says... #1
Because it's not clear what was said, I can't say for certain where they're wrong. But Tail Slash does not work differently.
As long as at least one target of Tail Slash is still legal when Tail Slash would resolve, Tail Slash can resolve. As long as the target creature you don't control is still a legal target, the first target creature will deal damage equal to its current power to that creature. If the first target creature is no longer on the battlefield, its last known information will be used to determine the quantity and the kind of damage (lifelink, deathtouch, etc.).
If the second target is illegal, Tail Slash resolves and does nothing.
April 17, 2015 10:58 a.m.