Cipher and Flashback
Asked by RussischerZar 12 years ago
Lets say you have a Last Thoughts in the graveyard (hey, you can cast cipher spells without actually ciphering them!), then you use Snapcaster Mage to flash it back. Can you cipher it or not? I'm not 100% sure but I would say yes.
RussischerZar says... #2
Yeah, that's why I wasn't 100% sure. I read some other sources and forum posts and they usually say it would indeed work. Anyone seen an official ruling on this?
March 11, 2013 11:05 a.m.
Absinthman says... #3
A little detail to add (also my own understanding): "Anywhere else" in the Flashback's description, in my opinion, doesn't literally mean "into another zone". I think that "being exiled for another reason" also qualifies as "anywhere else" here. Though I'd really like to hear other people's opinions on this matter.
March 11, 2013 11:05 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #4
Well, you are casting it, so I don't really see why you wouldn't be able to cipher it.
The thing is, you would choose to cipher it, then as it resolves its exiled by its cipher then exiled by flashback, in my less then expert opinion.
March 11, 2013 11:13 a.m.
Absinthman says... #5
@vampirelazarus: I see your point, but this is actually the exact think which we're trying to clarify here. Flashback's exile is a replacement effect that in my humble opinion would replace the exiling you chose to perform when trying to encode the spell with cipher, resulting in the card not being encoded. Also, if the card in exile gets exiled, it remains in exile but is considered as having been newly exiled. Thus it should lose all recollection of its having been ciphered anyway.
March 11, 2013 11:24 a.m.
theemptyquiver says... Accepted answer #6
Yes. Cipher will continue to work as normal.
Cipher exiles the card it encodes.
Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of the encoded card without paying its mana cost.
The relevant part of Flashback is the following replacement effect:
If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.
Flashback does absolutely nothing if you exile a card using Cipher because the card is not put "anywhere [other than exile]" when it leaves the stack. Cipher will continue to work as normal.
If you chose not to encode the card, Flashback will cause it to be exiled instead of going to the graveyard.
-stolen from google.
March 11, 2013 11:25 a.m.
I'm in agreement with Absinthman. Despite the fact that cipher requires exile as well, flashback replaces all destinations a card can possibly have with a regular exile. There is a not a one-size-fits all exile, really, as cards do remember how and why they were exiled, such as in the case of Nightveil Specter. Because flashback has no addendums to its exile as in the case of cipher, methinks it will exile without encoding onto anything.
March 11, 2013 11:25 a.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #8
As vampirelazarus say, you cast it with flashback, then it resolve entirely, so you can chose to cipher it and encode it on a creature and so exiling it. Then the exile from the flashback will resolve and see no valid target. OR you can chose not to cipher it and let it exile from flashback.
March 11, 2013 11:26 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #10
I think this might be a hint to the correct answer:
702.97c The card with cipher remains encoded on the chosen creature as long as the card with cipher remains exiled and the creature remains on the battlefield. The card remains encoded on that object even if it changes controller or stops being a creature, as long as it remains on the battlefield.
March 11, 2013 11:31 a.m.
Absinthman says... #11
@Bobgalarneau: The flaw in your reasoning is that "then flashback's exile will resolve". It doesn't resolve at all. It simply replaces the card's going anywhere else.
I actually could be wrong as I've found on the net that when you use Cloudshift on an Unearthed creature, it works fine and the creature comes back (which is a pretty similar situation). The source of this information could be wrong of course.
I think that this question could be actually simplified to the following: Does "anywhere else" in the flashback's reminder text refer only to "zones other than exile", or does it include "being exiled for any other reason that the requirement established by flashback"?
March 11, 2013 11:36 a.m.
Absinthman says... #12
@RussischerZar: I don't think it helps much. I think we're dealing with the problem of what will actually exile the card? Cipher or Flashback? If it gets exiled by flashback, I don't think that the encoding will actually happen.
March 11, 2013 11:38 a.m.
Absinthman says... #13
This is a damn good question by the way. A good brain teaser I needed for weeks.
March 11, 2013 11:42 a.m.
theemptyquiver says... #14
The spell with cipher is encoded on the creature as part of that spell's resolution, just after the spell's other effects. That card goes directly from the stack to exile. It never goes to the graveyard
Basically as part of the spell ending, as part of the resolution you choose a target, thus exiling the card. You are casting this spell with flashback, which has been added to the spell as it was originally stated, but as an additional value of ciphering has been added you have to choose a cipher target upon the spells resolution. If you have no valid targets than nothing happens and it would exile because of the flashback.
March 11, 2013 11:55 a.m.
I am actually pretty sure that the card will be able to be ciphered after flashback. The card is not being put "anywhere else" as flashback states; it is actually being exiled.
Like Absinthman said, using Cloudshift on an unearthed creature would result in it sticking onto the battlefield, whereas something like Unsummon would make it be exiled instead. The replacement effect of being put into exile should not care how it gets there.
March 11, 2013 12:03 p.m.
RussischerZar says... #16
Just a small clarification: cipher doesn't actually target, so you could encode cipher spells on creatures with shroud.
Anyway, the point Absinthman is trying to make is that even if the spell would be ciphered and thus exiled, it is instead put into "regular" exile and thus not encoded on the creature. You know since Flashback also exiles cards like White Sun's Zenith where you would usually shuffle the card into your library instead of the graveyard.
That's the whole question at the moment if the rules part "...exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack." does also imply "simply put this card into the exile zone instead of doing anything else with it".
March 11, 2013 12:07 p.m.
Absinthman says... #17
Well, I've found Rhadamanthus's answer regarding the same question on MTG Salvation forum that has been confirmed by a Level 2 judge there:
The replacement effect of flashback sends the card to exile if it would go anywhere else. Since cipher is already sending the card to exile, flashback doesn't interfere with it.
Conclusion: I've been wrong, we have a nice interaction going on here.
March 11, 2013 12:07 p.m.
RussischerZar says... #19
Well that thread is from December, and he even states "[the] answer is correct based on the reminder text, but [...] we can't know the exact interaction for sure until we know the Comprehensive Rules for Cipher."
March 11, 2013 12:12 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #20
seems pretty cut and dry to me at this point. Everything I have found, plus the previous judge ruling in that link.
i cipher on the comprehensive rules. :)
March 11, 2013 12:15 p.m.
Absinthman says... #21
That is true, but I guess that the important part of that is "Since cipher is already sending the card to exile, flashback doesn't interfere with it." This implies that when a card is being exiled for another reason than Flashback in general, Flashback doesn't do anything to it.
March 11, 2013 12:16 p.m.
As far as I understood it once a cipher card encoded it is exiled, but if flashback was used the card will encode and 'move' from the 'ciphered exile zone' to the 'flashback exiled zone', this won't make much difference as to how the card was exiled, but cipher will resolve. The card doesn't necessarily 'stay' with the encoded creature, but I have seen people putting it on a creature much like an enchantment, but it really isn't there. I'm sure there's a reason for these separate 'zones of exile' more specifically with cards that allow you to play cards in exile, or even draw from exile. The big question now is, are there cards that specifically target cards in the flashback exile zone, or cards that specifically target cards in all exile zones?
March 11, 2013 12:23 p.m.
Exile is exile. Just because a card is "exiled with" an object (encoded on a creature, exiled with Oblivion Ring, imprinted on Isochron Scepter, etc) does not mean there is another zone specifically for that card, it just means it is a property or characteristic or quality or information of the exiled card.
March 11, 2013 12:29 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #24
Someone flashed the Dork-Signal.
We do know the full Comprehensive Rules text for Cipher, and it says the spell exiles itself as it resolves and becomes encoded on the chosen creature.
There is no such thing as a "ciphered exiled zone" or a "flashback exiled zone". There is an exile zone. For Flashback, "anywhere else" means "a zone other than exile", so the replacement effect will not be applied if the spell is already going to exile. The currently accepted answer is the correct one.
March 11, 2013 3:35 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #25
Thanks theemptyquiver and Bobgalarneau.
Now, to more pressing matters.... How do we kill a Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger commander deck?
Absinthman says... #1
Well, I'm not 100 % sure about this but I'd say that it wouldn't work. Flashback is defined like this in the Comperhensive Rules:
Flashback [cost] means You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost and If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.
The way I understand this, as soon as you would try to exile the card to encode it, it's flashback "exile this" would take precedence and plainly exile the card without encoding it.
March 11, 2013 11:01 a.m.