Can a Planeswalker block itself?
Asked by MindAblaze 12 years ago
I'm building a deck called Superfriends Circle Jank and am wondering...If I turn Liliana Vess into an artifact with Liquimetal Coating and then a creature with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and my opponent chooses to attack liliana, can I use her to block?
MindAblaze says... #2
She would still have her loyalty counters and abilities though, so this is where I'm stumped. Because I can still activate her ability. But is she just now a creature with loyalty abilities?
March 5, 2013 1:52 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #3
Well...your opponent has to attack you. So the short answer is yes. If he is attacking you, the damage can be redirected at a PW, but as Liliana is a artifact creature do due the layers you have placed on it, you can block with her as you would any creature.
This is presuming I have understood your scenario correctly.
March 5, 2013 1:52 p.m.
Wait, I'm wrong. I just read the Gatherer rulings on his ability and it says "The artifact targeted by the second ability will retain any types, subtypes, or supertypes it has."
In that case, Liliana Vess would be able to block for you, but where your thinking is wrong is that creatures can attack planeswalkers directly; this is not the case. Any damage that would be dealt to a player may be redirected by the source of the damage's controller to a Planeswalker the defending player controls, so Liliana Vess would block for you, and if any damage got through, the other player could choose to redirect to the planeswalker.
Now about the Loyalty counters vs. toughness, I have no idea.
March 5, 2013 1:52 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #5
(me type good)
*due to the layers (it should have read)
March 5, 2013 1:53 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #6
Yes. Goodys second answer is more along the line of how i understood your question.
March 5, 2013 1:54 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #7
Hold on, what?
Creatures do attack planeswalkers directly. The redirection rule is based on dealing noncombat damage to planeswalkers by targeting the player and redirecting it. In combat, you don't "redirect" a creature's damage, you specifically attack either the player or one of their planeswalkers.
March 5, 2013 1:56 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #8
Ok, so Yes, she can block for herself, because she isn't actually being attacked, I am being attacked with the damage being directed at her. Hah. Geez. Thanks guys.
March 5, 2013 1:57 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #10
@MagnorCriol...stupid stupid. haha. i'm allowed to have brain farts in my old age. well...either way. she can still block because of the layers.
i guess it seems paradoxical, but the rules should not prevent that.
March 5, 2013 2 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #11
She would be now an Artifact Creature Planeswalker - Liliana Vess with power/toughness of 5/5 and however many loyalty counters she had on her. She would still be able to activate all of her loyalty abilities as normal and gain or lose them as normal.
Damage dealt to her will cause her to lose loyalty counters and to get damage marked on her, so she actually becomes more vulnerable in a way - she could die for having lethal damage marked on her, or be put in a graveyard for having zero loyalty counters. She also suddenly gains a vulnerability to deathtouch she didn't have before and can suddenly be smacked around by Doom Blade and his friends.
March 5, 2013 2 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #12
@theemptyquiver Haha, don't worry, I have them too. These damn whippersnappers and their music.
March 5, 2013 2:01 p.m.
My best guess would be that Liliana Vess would remain a Planeswalker and a creature, and would retain its loyalty counters, abilities, etc. and would gain P/T of 5/5. Taken from the rules,
119.2a Damage may be dealt as a result of combat. Each attacking and blocking creature deals combat damage equal to its power during the combat damage step.
119.3c Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
119.3e Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.
I guess Lilly would take damage by blocking, which would count both towards marked damage to her toughness and to her loyalty counter total. If any damage got through and was redirected at her, it would once again count toward both her marked damage and loyalty counters.
It's a lose-lose situation for you, as all it does is it makes Lilly more vulnerable.
March 5, 2013 2:01 p.m.
candlehawk says... Accepted answer #14
The short answer is yes, she can block, but she still takes damage in the form of subtracting loyalty counters.
Goody, no, creatures do in fact attack Planeswalkers. It is only direct damaging spells that must be redirected from the player to the Planeswalker:
306.6. Planeswalkers can be attacked. (See rule 508, "Declare Attackers Step.")
As opposed to direct damage:
306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.
Though Liliana would lose loyalty counters:
306.8. Damage dealt to a planeswalker results in that many loyalty counters being removed from it.
As rule 306.8 never specifies that when a Planeswalker is a creature, damage is dealt like a creature. This rule here is the reason for clauses on Gideon, Champion of Justice's 0 ability: Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn. Notice how this has to be placed even though he is also indestructible? In most cases, indestructible creatures don't need this other clause, as lethal damage does not kill them, but as Gideon is still a Planeswalker in addition to being a creature, he would still have loyalty counters taken off equal to the damage.
March 5, 2013 2:01 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #15
Though Goody is right to point out that Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas doesn't say "in addition to its other types", this is one of those rare times when an odd little rule makes things turn out differently than you would expect. Because Liliana of the Veil is specifically being animated as an artifact, she keeps her other types:
205.1b Some effects change an object's card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object's prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase "in addition to its types" or that state that something is "still a [type, supertype, or subtype]." Some effects state that an object becomes an "artifact creature"; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
The reason for this special rule is that the Artifact --> Creature type change is a very common effect, and not having to say "in addition to its other types" saves several words of rules text on many cards in the game.
Because the resulting Liliana is a Planeswalker, she can be attacked by creatures, and because she's a creature, she can be assigned to block a creature attacking you or one of your planeswalkers, including herself. When she gets dealt combat damage by the creature she's blocking she'll lose that many loyalty counters, and if she goes to 0 loyalty or gets dealt lethal damage then she'll die (being a 5/5, she probably killed the creature she blocked, so it's not all bad).
March 5, 2013 2:02 p.m.
theemptyquiver says... #17
@Rhadamanthus it's called nerd exercise dude. it's good for us.
March 5, 2013 2:06 p.m.
Oh sorry. I didn't know the ruling for attacking Planeswalkers, but I just found it in the rulebook. My bad.
March 5, 2013 2:07 p.m.
MagnorCriol says... #19
Rhadamanthus, Considering all the confused answers flying around here, having definitive backup from a respected source such as you is a good thing, I'd think, even if the answer was discovered elsewise.
March 5, 2013 2:07 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #20
Alright, I am satisfied. She can block, and both loses loyalty counters AND has damage marked on her, and she is then vulnerable to both lethal damage AND losing all her loyalty counters...but I can still Mind Rot with her +1 when I have Illusionist's Bracers equipped to her. Fun, albeit perhaps not an efficient use of my mana.
Goody says... #1
I had to stop and think about this one, that's pretty funny.
I'm pretty sure Liliana Vess will no longer be a Planeswalker by the time she is turned into an artifact, therefore your opponent would not be able to attack her - rather, redirect damage from you to her. The ability of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas says that target artifact "becomes" a 5/5 artifact creature, and leaves out "in addition to its other types".
You'd have a 5/5 artifact creature Liliana Vess.
March 5, 2013 1:48 p.m.