Which format actually rewards skills and creativity?
General forum
Posted on July 31, 2013, 1:38 p.m. by Quick3nd
Hey everyone,
I just started playing Magic recently via Magic The Gathering Online, and as a beginner I've decided to start with Pauper as my initial learning platform due to the smaller initial investment, and because I wouldn't have to be forced to spend more money on new decks/new cards due to the set/cards rotation that exists in standards and block formats (fearing that I might have to spend money switching to a new pool of cards before I even learned all the basic rules, mechanics, and all the cards being used in that particular format.)
However, having been playing Pauper for a week, it seems that it's less about skill nor how creative you are with your deck design, since the format is so established that basically every time you enter a game, it's just net-deck vs net-deck, and your chances of winning pretty much just rides on what deck you're using, and what deck your opponent is using. For example, if you're running Mono-black vs a Delver, Mono-Blue, or Blue-Post deck, then your chances are pretty slim (unless luck is really on your side, or if your opponent is just making that many mistakes.)
In competitive gaming, usually what sets a person apart is how good his mechanics are, his decision making skills, and his creativity to bring something new to the table that nobody has seen before**- and since Magic (magic online) is a card game, the mechanics is of less importance, as long as you know the rules of the games and are familiar with how the game is played... so that leaves decision making skills and creativity.
While decision making certainly makes an impact, for example, knowing when to bait out a move from your opponent, when to use cards to see what cards your opponent might be possibly holding, when and how to use your card, a lot of the times it feels like LUCK plays more of a factor on whether or not you win or you lose (determined by how your draws are, especially your hand at the start of the game.)
So in a card game where luck exists, requires less mechanics, shouldn't creativity- theorycrafting - deck design be an influential factor for determining how good of a player you are, and what sets you apart from the rest?
You couple all these points along with these net-decks in a long established format in a system that publishes your deck idea online after an event.... even if someone do manage to come up with something unique and flavorful, there's really no reward for it, 'cuz everybody will be using the same build soon... and you whom painstakingly came up with the new idea through hours of theory crafting are back to square one - standing shoulder to shoulder in a competitive environment where it's all about which net-deck you're running, and which you're going up against - so perhaps through your hard work of coming up with something new, you were able to dominate the events for a few weeks, but eventually it just becomes "another net-deck" and you, just another player, using the handful of net-decks, relying on good draws.
So what sets a good player apart from a bad, an average player? Because, though I appreciate Pauper, and it has introduced me to the basics of the game.... the fact that it's such a stagnant landscape that does not nurture creativity is making it harder and harder to appreciate.
With that said, which format would you guys say requires more skills and reward a player's ingenuity? I'm a person who loves to theorycraft, and enjoy seeing my performance as a reflection of how creative I can be .... the formats that use the newest cards would most likely be the best place for such endeavor right? And, to the people who have been playing in such format, is it a wild wild west where everybody try to bring something new to the table every time? or is it also a monotonous net-deck vs net-deck environment?
Which format would you guys recommend?
I would say standard because it evolves so quickly and has a small card pool you have to be able to adapt. Sure, there are netdecks, but the popular ones change every month.
July 31, 2013 1:51 p.m.
My suggestion goes to Standard. I personally like Modern the best, but Standard requires more skill to remain competative than Modern, as well as less money overall.
July 31, 2013 1:55 p.m.
It's funny that the "most skill intensive format" is also one of the most "luck intensive format".
Not that I'm saying draft isn't skill intensive... it's just that sometimes luck trumps skill.
Opening a couple hard to deal with bomb rares in your packs can make your deck good, even with second rate Uncommons and Commons.
Drafting in a set where no one is drafting your color(s) is a lucky stroke that will likely give you the best possible outcome.
The thing that makes Draft the most skill intensive, is to know what to pick and how to combine your picks, in the ABSENCE OF LUCK.
July 31, 2013 1:56 p.m.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #7
Drafting and sealed take the most skill since you are building a deck on the fly. Standard very quickly becomes net decking even though it changes more frequently. The decks that win tournaments are used most frequently. Right now, when new cards come out and a set is rotating, is when you get a lot of new builds but it will eventually settle down into a few very good decks that will be used a lot.
July 31, 2013 2:02 p.m.
But ya, as a gamer/competitor, obviously we all want to stand out amongst the crowd and be recognized as a skilled competitor.
Yet everyday when i check the meta-game sites to see who/what wins the daily event for that particular day - it's just filled with people playing primarily Blue variant decks.
Since there's only a few dominant decks in Pauper, 70% of the people run those 1-3 decks, and one day I see this guy wins with the deck, another day I see another guy win with the same deck... but who are actually the top 5-10 players within this format? Nobody really knows, because it all boils down to whether you're running those 1-3 dominant decks, and whether you had more matches against the decks that are weaker against yours - and that takes the fun part of the competition away. T_T
July 31, 2013 2:04 p.m.
Standard would be the most rewarding place to create new decks and try out new things, seconded by Modern imo. While Modern has a lot of established powerful decks, the sheer variety of possibilities lets you build something out of left field and do well with it. In Standard though it's always changing and there's no set in stone precedents, unless you're dealing with a deck like caw-blade that will always dominate the format for as long as it is legal.
July 31, 2013 2:06 p.m.
In the long run, standard definitely isn't cheaper than modern. This is because standard rotates every year and large parts of deck must be replaced, however once you have a modern deck, it will never need replacing (you just might need to add a few cards occasionally). Also, the most expensive things in modern are the lands, and once you have them, they can be reused in any deck you make.
July 31, 2013 2:06 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #11
I suggest limited formats and EDH/Commander. Limited formats puts everyone on a level playing field without any possibility for a "netdeck". EDH is the most popular of the singleton formats which forces decks to have multiple win conditions, which hurts the idea of netdecking.
July 31, 2013 2:17 p.m.
Also, EDH has an enormously significant "socio-political dynamics" factor that can keep things very interesting and reward different kinds of creative moves and a wider variety of gaming skills.
July 31, 2013 2:31 p.m.
Please keep in mind that you're asking two questions here. You asked about skill, and you asked about creativity. The answers are different.
If one assumes that when you say "creativity" you mean "creative deck building", then probably Standard is your best constructed bet. It's not just a matter of what deck is dominant. No cards in the pool changed from the time that Junk Reanimator went from dominant to an also-ran. Other deckbuilders just came up with answers. Now Reanimator is on a comeback because it changed and adapted. All of this requires some creativity. (It's also why netdecking just hurts...a netdecker can't adapt to a metagame in advance.)
But Standard is severely lacking in skill when compared with other formats. There are a few Standard decks that need some skill, like control decks and the various Aristocrats decks, but nearly every Legacy deck requires some serious skill. Most Modern ones do as well. These are formats that have many times more kinds of interactions and much more often come up with some situation that you haven't seen before.
Of course, as noted by a couple people above, Limited offers both of these things. I don't discount draft in this like one poster does above. If you have skill, you can overcome poor luck.
By the way, don't give up on Pauper. Yes, the same few decks tend to be successful, but there is a lot of room for creativity in the format since red storm decks were banned. The reason why you have so many netdecks is because the general skill/creativity level of the Pauper player is low (yes, that's a huge generalization), not because there are no possible other decks. RG Tempo can be a really good deck right now. Rebel Post can be a really good deck right now. Mono-white life gain decks (as opposed to the GW decks you reguarly see) can be really good. There's this deck that Deluxeicoff built around Retrace cards (Syphon Life and Raven's Crime ) that I think is brilliant. Someone came up with the Aura Gnarlid deck out of nowhere not too long ago. There's room for good things in pauper.
July 31, 2013 2:38 p.m.
harrydemon117 says... #14
I think the term "net decking" has made it seem like an evil thing when in truth it is because someone (or in most cases lots of people) have tested various decks and have come up with something that's really consistent. The "GOOD" players know this and will limit their play testing to a few decks until they settle on one they feel the most "in tune" with.
No one is really a "bad" player....just not as experienced. There are players that don't see the "proper play" of course, but in time they will learn (hopefully). Magic to me is like Chess...no two games are alike and it will take YEARS to master.
For new players it is suggested to play with a "net deck" because these decks were put together for a reason....consistency. This helps them play with a "competitive" deck (or at least one that has a chance) so they can concentrate on game flow and keeping track of certain things (like life points, counters, etc). Once a player can do this on a consistent basis THEN it is time to branch out your skills and try create your own deck. The problem here is an idea may sound good in theory, but in practice it bombs out more times than not. This will discourage some people so they instead go back to "net decking".
Now to answer your primary question, there isn't a format that stands out among others as "more skill intensive" because each set plays differently than the others. One who is well versed in Standard and wins on a consistent basis won't necessarily be good at Draft. You have to play each in order to learn them.
Draft and Sealed are probably higher picks for this category because it's not about who has massed the most rares/mythics and "net decked" but rather you work with what you have.in front of you and everyone starts out equal (although variance is there for luck of the cards)
July 31, 2013 2:39 p.m.
i would say Daft also you creativeness and strategy applies at the moment and dont have much time to think so this would help you as exercise to improve you may not do it great the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time but you will definitely improve your skills builading decks and strategy playingwise too
July 31, 2013 3:28 p.m.
10vernothin says... #16
funny story about EDH
We were playing 6 player EDH and I was playing rakdos , except I was stuck at 5 lands and my general died once so I couldn't cast him. Everyone else was going crazy and once I was at 1 life, no one even cared about me. I ended up being 2nd place.
July 31, 2013 3:36 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #17
Just had a neat idea:
A group of people play a version of sealed where 6 packs are opened and those cards are written down. Then each person builds a sealed deck from the same pool (using cockatrice or something similar). Then a tournament takes place.
Literally say good bye to unfair pulls, because everyone has the same pool.
Would this work as a format?
July 31, 2013 3:44 p.m.
IAmKingTony says... #20
draft.
Standard and really even Modern is netdeck central. Except Modern is more of a game of who can spend the most money on their deck.
July 31, 2013 3:58 p.m.
The above responses all have very valid points for you to consider. Typically speaking, drafting and to some extent sealed (depending on which set) is a real test of skill. Not only are you concerned about picking cards with regards to building a deck on the fly, but you have access to the ability to influence the draft forcing other people into less advantageous colors combinations depending the players and picks at the table youre sitting at; even more so, you can calculate the odds of seeing certain cards in play in your pod both of your opponents and of yourself and draft around those. As for constructed formats, I believe it would be folly to state that any format has a leg up on creativity or skill with regards to a vacuum comparative standard is not more or less skill intensive than legacy; albeit, strictly speaking though, formats like modern and legacy tend to require more knowledge of the card pool than something like standard if you do consider experience as skill intensive.
I would like to answer your question in a more round-about way though; youre asking about skill and creativity in a game that is designed with certain limitations on space with every aspect in every format. I think it is more important for you to make the decision about what format to enter into based upon what kinds of skills or creativity or mixture of the two you most enjoy.
In order to properly assess that, you have to understand that skill in the game of Magic goes quite a bit beyond the ability to perform combat tricks, understanding the synergy of cards, understanding board states or acknowledge what plays will put you behind or ahead at any even point of the game, and knowing the rules. Skillful play exhibits itself inside and outside of a game. A prime example of this is building a good side board and knowing when to side board which cards. This of course is not limited to finding counters for cards or strategies that may have a natural advantage over you in the meta; but extends deeper in understanding the right side board choices when youre on the play or on the draw depending on the how you will foresee a match-up going all of that ties back into picking the right cards to be on your side board. Mental space is important in magic as well and is a skill developed over time. Ever try playing a game of mental magic if you can perform fine under those conditions, itll drastically increase your ability to process information faster or better in any given format. Every constructed format affords those additional skill requisites that truly separate a great magic player from a good one.
Creativity is also a very subjective figure to base this game on creativity goes far beyond deck building in the game of magic. Sam Black is quite possibly one of the best deck builders in Magic, but when it comes to Pro tour standings, other people who pilot his deck tend to do better this is both a combination of skill and creative play see Pro Tour Gatecrash and the deck Aristocrats Act I. A good deck should strive to play a game of go advantageously and should evolve with the game state as it itself evolves ie. creative lines of play with a deck that is able to create those conditions. But even more importantly, magic player should recognize that there is a cap in design space when it comes to deck building. Cards are inherently powerful or not powerful given the pool of cards they are available in. Thragtusk may be a powerful card in Standard but has no or little place in Modern or Legacy. Each and every format has varying degrees of limitations in design space (keep in mind, Wizards makes cards with all of this in mind at least one would hope and assume). Certain cards or designed with a certain format in mind or probably more accurately with a certain longevity in mind. Therefore formats that rotate very often or formats that have a too many older powerful cards in their pools tend to stifle the design space. You will have less valuable choices of cards to choose from.
You mentioned luck being a large factor in Magic: the Gathering. While there is truth to that, there are a variety of solutions. I really lose a lot of respect to people you complain on that time that they just draw bad hands or got mana screwed or flooded. Yes it happens, every deck is capable of doing that, but if it consistent, then there is a problem with you as a player or your deck in construction. Knowing when to mulligan and what hands to keep is a risk assessment skill that is invaluable to great magic players. With regards to design, if you run into the mana flood problem a lot then maybe its high time to do some math and reconsider the amount of lands you have in your deck or better yet add some landfall cards or find a way to make drawing a land advantageous to you. Likewise, color fixing and mana acceleration, and the right amount of lands in a deck usually is the remedy for being color screwed. Additionally, for those that would still criticize luck being a factor in the game, there are a number of pro players every season every year with consistent above 66 percent win rates in a variety of formats including limited; thats a 2-1 match win average and these pro tend to repeat those numbers year after year when they are active. Luck is a factor, but only one in a myriad, and certainly not the most demanding of your attention. You can take a gander at the newest statistics for the Magic Worlds coverage going on right now to see those numbers.
Lastly, you mentioned the item of price in Magic: the Gathering. When all else fails, play with cards you want to play with within reason most good cards are good for a particular reason. It is not uncommon to play the deck in its different iterations in all formats. For example; Jund is heavily played in Standard and Modern, and see some play in legacy. Likewise, Mono-white has the same appearance. This will usually save you some cost as the lands you will be using (probably the most costly cards to purchase in magic in playsets) will be the same and interchangeably useable. The question really becomes how brave are you to play what you like to play in every format?
July 31, 2013 4:19 p.m.
IAmKingTony says... #22
Luck is a factor in draft but you can definitely build up skill and once you do, you can easily manipulate luck to be in your favor.
Not to toot my own horn but I ended up with a 92% winning percentage in DGM-GTC-RTR draft.
July 31, 2013 4:57 p.m.
I also agree with Drafting. People will often cite luck as a determining factor, but really the most important part is how you interpret signals and communicate with the player to your right. Even if you open up a bomb (such as Desecration Demon in Return to Ravnica), the person to your right may have opened up something like Pack Rat . Recognizing what other players are drafting is more important than just opening up good cards.
As far as Standard goes, it's probably the LEAST creativity-rewarding format. The card pool is so small that there's only a handful of tier-one decks that absolutely trounce every other archetype in the format. Right now, those are limited to Junk Rites, Jund Midrange, Bant Auras, and Naya Blitz. Nevermind the fact combo is completely absent from the format, which is why control isn't as good as it could be, since it has to deal with a plethora of aggro decks. Standard is particularly rock-paper-scissors right now because of how efficient many of the creatures are.
I have high hopes for Modern, but the recent bannings have reduced the number of tier-one decks from eight to around four or five, depending on the meta. It's still a relatively young format, so I'm sure it will get better in the future.
EDH is a lot of fun, but the ban list really needs to be updated. Green, black, and blue are absurdly powerful, especially blue and green. The reality is there's only a handful of competitive generals, while aggro is pretty much non-existent (thank goodness for general damage, otherwise everything would be combo and control).
Legacy is a format that has a large enough card pool that there's almost no limit to the decks available. Stoneblade has been all over top 8s, but I think it has more to do with the deck just being popular, rather than it being broken.
The format that rewards creativity the most while requiring a lot of skill is Vintage. There's almost always eight different archetypes in top 8s of major tournaments, with at least one of those being a homebrew rogue deck. The only problem is the barrier to entry is high. Even "budget" decks, such as Dredge or Maverick, can cost well over $1,000. Any Mishra's Workshop -based deck is going to run well over $5k, sometimes as high as $10k if no proxies are used. However, the difference between a $500 Vintage deck and a $5,000 Vintage deck isn't as drastic as the difference between a $50 Standard deck and a $500 one.
July 31, 2013 5:45 p.m.
It depends on what skills you're interested in using. Obviously pure deck making ability, and instant card perception come into use most in Draft. In standard its more about working with a smaller group of cards, but, still, it is often dominated by a few strategies, deviating from which is suicide. In legacy (and the like), it essentially comes down to whoever has the most resources to make the best deck, since the strategies have been around forever. I don't typically play legacy (or anything like that) for this reason. Personally, I prefer multiplayer. It requires both typical strategic skills, as well as social skills to manipulate your opponents. Even better, if you can get five people, I played a game in the "Star" format yesterday, 5 people in a circle, to win you need to eliminate the people who don't neighbor you. Additionally, if that isn't for you, EDH games tend to be longer, more diverse, and less consistent, so it depends on your ability to use what you're given.
January 2, 2014 1 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #25
Once it comes out on MODO, vintage is the most skill intensive format, with a wide pool of viable decks, and changes from each person's decks. After initial investments, the format costs very little, as very few cards make an impact on the format. Many of those that do are inexpensive or corner case cards. A prime example of this was Slash Panther . For a few months, that card was played as a four-of main deck answer in aggro decks to the control deck's Jace, the Mind Sculptor . Vintage is a very different game from any of the other formats, due to the unbelievable power level of the cards and decks.
January 2, 2014 7:05 p.m.
@The_Wizard: It's interesting how many options open up when you're allowed to play with power cards. Slash Panther is a great example. It's terrible in something like Modern. But playing it turn one off of Mishra's Workshop and a Sol Ring ? 4/2 with haste for "two" mana is just bonkers.
It's amazing how many cards all of a sudden become playable when the format revolves around broken cards. Most people think it's the opposite--that cards get pushed out of the format because people run restrictedlist.dec. Spiketail Hatchling , Slash Panther , Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch , Wear / Tear , Magus of the Unseen , etc. are all shining examples of this.
January 2, 2014 7:13 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #27
@sylvannos: It's surprising, because some people do run resrictedlist.dec. Reid Duke recently said that he thinks it's one of the best decks in the format.
Also, I'm going to plug a book I love, because I think it can help people. Next Level Deckbuilding is a book by Patrick Chapin all about how to build the best possible decks. It includes reviews of great decks, strategies, and many other things. It's available as an ebook, and I highly recommend that people check it out.
January 2, 2014 7:20 p.m.
Re: ". . ., which format would you guys say requires more skills and reward a player's ingenuity?"
Casual.
Have a playgroup that inspires and demands creativity. Make up you own 'house rules,' If you meet once a week, decide the week before what the deck-building criteria are for the next week. If there's a mix of more- and less-experienced players, and players with larger and smaller card collections, then you'll naturally pick custom formats that are fair - this might mean Pauper, or Singleton, or better yet: pool a bunch of cards together for a Cube draft.
If you want skill rewarded over bank account size, then draft or sealed limited is the only thing I can think of. Every other format mostly rewards the player with the greatest access to the best cards ("May the richest man win" and so on).
There will always be luck involved, and this is a game where that is built in. I too bemoan the state where the competitive field is always the same 3 or 4 netdecks bought (card-by-card, or wholesale) by whoever can afford them. But, that's the way the system works, and you can either work in it, or do something else.
January 2, 2014 11:19 p.m.
im not going to beat a dead horse here, as most of the points ive seen are pretty valid. i personaly favor EDH, as for me its a new challenge, ive only built two decks and im currently getting my rear ended handed to me on a consistent basis. but they are slowly getting better, and its taking my opponents longer to beat me in group play. i made the mistake of building my decks as if i was facing a single opponent. im getting a lot more creative with dealing with multiplayer threats long game. legacy can be fun because literally anything goes, and you can do some serious researching and creative combinations on a budget because a lot of the cards are cheap and relatively unknown. gatherer is a good source to search for those cards, and you can have a lot of fun building it, then drop 25 bucks at your local shop or on tcg player to get the cards you need,some of my scariest legacy decks cost me less that 40 to put together, and theyre terrors. draft isnt really my thing, but ive done a few pre release tournaments, and ive seen some amazing 40 card decks come out of it even with crappy draws because people get a sense of how the cards interact. im not a big fan of standard for two reasons. one , if you dont have the bankroll to be competitive its pretty hard(if your doing tournament regularly) and the same types of decks seem to win the majority of the time. if you create something off the wall then you can surprise your local groups for a game or two, but i rather think long term in formats like modern, legacy, and EDH. ultimately the choice is yours as to what you enjoy, but those are my experiences.
Dritz says... #2
Draft is called the most skill intensive format for a reason. If thats what you're looking for its there for the taking.
July 31, 2013 1:43 p.m.