Prophet of Kruphix - $3, Courser of Kruphix - $20 WHAT?
Economics forum
Posted on June 18, 2014, 4:40 p.m. by phaze08
Ok know how great Courser is, but why is prophet so cheap in comparison? Prophet is super great for control strategies who can now tap out each turn without fear and also any aggro deck. It offers lots of combats tricks with flash and again, tons of mana.
Why does Prophet of Kruphix not see much play? And why is it so cheap?
"the card isn't going to change a year from now, so if you don't know if Prophet will be good or not then that means you don't know if it's good or not now."
This doesn't even make sense. I'm judging the card in the current meta. And how do you know Prophet will be bad in the future? I didn't realize you had fortune-telling powers and could see into the future. I'm sure you totally knew Pack Rat and Desecration Demon would become the strongest creatures in the format, too.
Thanks, assassin54853; we'll take the conversation from here.
June 23, 2014 3:32 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #3
You guys wanna analyze cards in a vaccum, that's why zandl's argument isn't making sense to you guys. If I made a card that said 1 mana if you have a card named Broken-ass-card (relation to assquach? hmmmm), you win the game, you could consider it bad because you're looking at it by itself. But what makes a card good is how it interacts with other cards. If shuffle the library effects didn't exist, I don't think jace the mind sculptor would be banned in modern. It would be damn good, don't get me wrong, but it'd be legal. And stoneforge mystic is banned because it interacts so well with batterskull and jitte.
Not let's look at prophet and courser compared to to other cards in standard (because that's where we seem to be comparing them.) Courser interacts favorably with aggro because it can block most of their things and it doesn't die to their removal. In addition, it's a low mana investment for all this upside. It also gains you life and draws you cards. Prophet dies to lightning strike, aggro's best removal, and in older formats, lightning bolt. Prophet nets you no card advantage, and it drops late, so it's not even an effecient blocker. I mean, aggro tends to kill turn 4, before you can play prophet, assuming you're hitting land drops.
Aggro comparison; Courser 1, prophet 0.
Against midrange courser stops you from drawing lands at critical moments, however it can be mortar'd and doesn't block much midrange stuff well. The life gain can stall for another turn, perhaps the turn needed to find a verdict or revelation. Against midrange, prophet also dies to everything, plus strike which I see somewhat often, and anger of gods. It's 5 mana, so you're not gonna be keeping mana open, and it's likely to be killed, but even if it doesn't, midrange is perfectly happy to rakdos's return your hand away so prophet is a vanilla, or just remove what comes out. Where as if your hand gets emptied and you're playing courser, your topdecks are better as you're getting a slightly worse scry 1 a turn.
Midrange comparison; Courser 2, prophet 0.
Against control the toughness doesn't matter unless you're playing america, in which again, resillience to red's 2 best removal spells, lightning strike and anger of gods is important. Both get d sphere'd, prophet lets your stuff get sphere'd faster. Courser can get in for early damage which tends to swing games, prophet can't. The life gain is negligible against control. However, being basically promised you're not gonna dead draw is HUGE. I mean, HUGE against control. You're gonna be topdecking if things go bad, that's a promise. And if you are, courser's what you wanna have.
Here's what it comes down to. Prophet promotes and enables overextending, something no good player will do unless it's nessicary, and it won't be necessary in the decks prophet would see play in. Courser promotes consistency and resilience, something necessary for magic.
June 23, 2014 4:04 p.m.
again your just judging the meta. If you notice the OP makes no mention of any formats, so the fact that you guys immediately jump in and say he sucks because he doesn't top 8 standard pro tournaments is kind of narrow minded.
The ones analyzing him in a vacuum are you, HorrorAvengers, and zandl. Evident by the fact that your argument revolves entirely around the standard format. There are several formats available to play, including quite a few casual formats. Just because you don't play in those formats and don't recognize the potential this guy has doesn't mean he sucks. Prophet of Kruphix is a good card. The reason he doesn't see play in standard is purely a meta related issue, similar to the way Desecration Demon wasn't seeing tons of play before theros. I didn't even read everything you typed in your last post because as soon as I saw your first sentence I knew you had completely missed what was going on. No one is arguing why he doesn't see play in standard right now, but that doesn't change how good of a card he is and the potential he carries. Maybe you should take your own advise and stop viewing him in the "vacuum" that is the standard format only and then you'll be able to open your eyes and see what's actually going on here.
June 23, 2014 4:31 p.m.
"The ones analyzing him in a vacuum are you, HorrorAvengers, and zandl. Evident by the fact that your argument revolves entirely around the standard format."
=
"By comparing it to current decks and strategies, you are judging the card in a vacuum by itself and by not looking at it with current decks or strategies."
Either you're just confused or you don't know what "in a vacuum" means.
June 23, 2014 4:39 p.m.
Done with the conversation until someone makes sense.
/unsubscribes
June 23, 2014 4:40 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
I believe what he was getting at is not that you are judging in an absolute vacuum, but that you guys are judging the cards in the relative vacuum of standard, the format with the smallest card pool and the most fluctuations in power levels because of the fact of rotation.
When taken in any other format the courser is a distant third to Oracle of Mul Daya
and Future Sight
and the prophet is Seedborn Muse
that forces you into a second color and gives your creatures flash. I would contend that in all formats besides block and standard the prophet is more likely to see play than the courser.
June 23, 2014 4:47 p.m.
A small amount of sense was made. I return.
Oracle of Mul Daya sees almost no play outside of EDH (source) and Courser of Kruphix is currently doing work in both Modern and even popping up here and there in Legacy (source).
Prophet of Kruphix is an EDH goddess - I already said that and stand behind it. But to say Prophet would be better than Courser in Modern or Legacy? I guess 5-drop 2/3 creatures with no ETB you think are good enough in those formats.
Prophet of Kruphix is used heavily in EDH, but aside from that, its Standard appearances are minimal (source) and its Modern and Legacy appearances are nonexistent.
June 23, 2014 4:57 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #9
I don't see Courser showing up on any legacey lists on MTGTop8 but I see that it is seeing more play in modern than I would have expected. To me Oracle of Mul Daya is a far more playable card, but maybe Jund had a spot that could be made available for 3 cmc but not 4.
I would also thank you to not be sarcastic to me, I have no part of your petty squabble with Abenz and Assassin, I was merely trying to get you guys to talk to each other as opposed to at each other. I also stated my opinion that Prophet was more playable. You may not agree with it, and you are welcome to that, but being hostile is unneeded.
June 23, 2014 5:24 p.m.
I wasn't being sarcastic. You made some sense.
I was never talking at anybody; this whole time, I've been laying down facts and stripping down what has been said at me for the hypocrisy and nonsense that it is.
June 23, 2014 5:26 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #11
The original post refers to price, and the conversation was there diverted to what I understood to be standerd-centric. If we go into any other format other than EDH, in which prophet is on my top ten of best blue&green cards, than courser just gets better and better. ANd courser has advantages over oracle in a higher toughness (AKA not being able to die to lightning bolt or wild nacatl), life gain (a life-saver vs burn), and lower mana cost. Oracle is better at ramp, that's all it's better at.
@Abenez Here's why I'm discussing standard. That's where both cards get their value, the original topic of comparison. You wanna talk older formats? Modern courser is 100000x better. Legacy I'm not familiar with as much, but but zandl's source on courser seeing fringe legacy play is reliable. EDH is the only constructed format where prophet is better. We can talk casual if you care to, but the original post is questioning the price difference between courser and prophet, and tabletop has pretty much 0 influence on price. I have answered both of the OP's question extensively; Why is it so cheap, and why does it not see play.
June 23, 2014 5:49 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Starting at about post 7 on this page (yay we made it to page 3 before this started) you and Abenz started talking at each other and it becomes fairly obvious that either #1 you no longer cared about each other's points only getting 1 up by making disparaging remarks, or #2 you were no longer READING each others remarks and only lightly perusing them for "ammo" and out of context quotes.
The " I guess 5-drop 2/3 creatures with no ETB you think are good enough in those formats." was what i was talking about with the sarcasm, not the "A small amount of sense was made, I return." which is also sarcastic. I personally reread my posts a few times and try to make edits for clarity to make sure what I say makes sense. You may not agree with my point but I do my best to have my point make sense so that people can freely agree or disagree without confusion on the point. Some typos will slip through since the words I read are what I meant to type but the way it is stated should "make sense".
My problem with the intended passage for my ire about sarcasm is that courser is either a turn 3 play with no relevance that turn, or you spend turn 4 playing it on the approximately 33% chance there is a land on top and it can start revealing the gas for turn 5 and beyond. So yes I think a 5 drop that could fit into a Bant control build and untap your lands on the next turn's upkeep is more playable than a 3 drop that is only relevant 33% of the time. That however is my opinion and I would appreciate it if instead of being flippant and disrespectful when you disagree that you would take the time to realize you sound immature and rephrase to something along the lines of "I disagree that a 5-drop 2/3 creatures with no ETB is good enough outside of standard" or if you want to keep a hint of sarcasm "I'm not sure you realize how bad a 5-drop 2/3 creatures with no ETB is in those formats."
June 23, 2014 5:51 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #13
If you want me to do a similar analysis on courser vs prophet for modern, I'd love to. EDH tends not to affect prices as much as modern, legacy, and standerd. Legacy is negligible to price, so what's left is modern. And, I suppose, collectors, but do you see pages of prophets next to pages of black lotus? I don't.
June 23, 2014 5:52 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #14
Also, if we're talking prophet being eliminated soley on being a 5 drop that doesn't do anything if it's immediately killed? the only card above 4 drop with no etb or on death effect in the 100 most played standard cards is Blood Baron. And have you ever tried to kill one without mortars? Not easy.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/strategy/hot_100_standard.asp
June 23, 2014 5:56 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
"Legacy is negligible to price"
Oh I wish it were so for all cards.
June 23, 2014 5:58 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #16
Agreed :( I want my tropical island and misty rainforest for my zegana edh... I guess selling my little brother's always an option
June 23, 2014 6:04 p.m.
That's a lot of words I'm not going to read. My points stand strongly and I'm getting out before this just turns into a pissing match.
June 23, 2014 6:05 p.m.
Prophet is a 2-3x in certain kinds of UG decks. Courser is a 4x in every Gx deck. That explains the price. Oh btw, the Prophet does not die to Doom Blade, unlike Colossus or Stormbreath, because you get them to tap out, and then you play the Prophet and untap. Then you counter doom blade next turn or play a protection spell. For the rest of the game, you never need to tap out because you have 10+ mana available and only tap when they are tapped. This guy wins games but it's not in the same deck style as GR monsters.
July 1, 2014 6:15 p.m.
Waiting for someone to tap out in order to cast your card is a pretty weak justification.
July 1, 2014 7:29 p.m.
My point is the other two cards don't even have that defense. But we're playing UG. If it's not safe now it will be soon, and we can control the field until then. It's like Aetherling in control matches. You play it when you can ensure it sticks, and then it takes over. The same cannot be said about Stormbreath. The Prophet is a control card and it works. I usually beat Jund this way.
assassin54853 says... #1
@abenz419 I'm glad I have a smart person backing me up on this, but I'm afraid that zandl still has trouble understanding and broadening his horizons of what a good card is. We better get Kruphix, God of Horizons to talk to him. You know... cause he's the God of Horizons... broadening horizons... hehe...
June 23, 2014 3:16 p.m.