Destroying $1,000 proxies on camera
Economics forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2022, 9:22 p.m. by TypicalTimmy
The newly made channel, Wolf Strider TCG, explains how he received some of the 30th Anniversary packs at a Las Vegas show.
This is him ripping the cards apart on camera.
I personally feel it is important the community comes together to put our foot down at WOTCs toxic and economically abusive behavior, and we as a community have. Alpha Investment's data shows they only sold around 1,900 of these packs, rounding upward to 2,000. And that if investors and stores were buying 4 of these sets each, then the actual buyer count is just 500, give or take.
The LGS franchise owner in my area said he bought two or three just in the rare event they do balloon down the road, but that they will likely become a loss for his margins. He said, however, that a loss of approximately three grand isn't going to run him into bankruptcy, so while it is not a wise financial investment in terms of risk / reward, it's also not exactly a detrimental one, either.
So Rudy may very well be right in his assessment of store owners buying two or three packs each. Regardless, we (likely) are not wealthy store owners and are instead just regular players who save up and buy what we can, when we can.
And so I share with you, perhaps the single greatest MTG related video of all time: The little guy standing up against the corporate bull.
Enjoy. And please subscribe. (No, not my channel. I am far too busy and uninteresting to have one ;p)
marco-piatti says... #3
I'm totally against the product and what it means in terms of economical strategy by wotc. I think it's a complete letdown and an insult to the players.
However i think that destroying the cards is not a solution and a wise behaviour. I get that they gave him those cards for free, nonetheless i don't think that this kind of conduct is positive either for the game.
Do you want to show how you disrespect the product? Immediately give that away. If i had been him, owing a YT channel and being gifted with those cards, i would have made a video of me going to my LGS just to open the packs with other players and than giving away some to each player. As i message i would say to wotc " thanks wotc, that is probably the experience you told us you had in mind, having the possibility to open a pack of alpha. This would have never happened if you hadn't given me one since they cost "only" 1K. Next time maybe think better before setting a ridicolous price for a product meant to enjoy the anniversary of the game".
You may be asking: "aren't you simply advertising the product this way?" My answer is that a collector product worth 1k (on paper) isn't supposed to be given away like that. The message would be IMO instead:" Thx wotc for giving me something you suppose i should have kept safe and sound in my locket just to wait for it to become even more expensive, but i don't give a damn about it and i am giving it away.. the way is thought you wotc should have done in the first place".
I get the disappointment, the rage about the product because it's an insult. I get it. But this looks to me just plain "vandalism". It's not a constructive criticism. I get that it's more impactful as a message (and more appealing for yt visualizations) but i don't think it's a safe one.
That's my 2 cents, hope i don't get destroyed here for sharing it (lol).
December 4, 2022 11:03 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #4
While I understand the sentiment, this would only perpetuate the problem. By giving them away for free, the demand is created and someone derives genuine value from them. Then, that person can sell them. This shows WOTC there is a genuine interest in the product.
The goal here is to dismiss it entirely.
December 4, 2022 11:30 a.m.
marco-piatti says... #5
Yes but wotc doesn't profit directly from secondary market.
They already know the product was a failure because for once the disappointment they found on social media was supported by a very low demand of the product itself. This time consumers were loyal to what they said about rejecting the product.
Now let's say i go to an event and they give me for free an original alpha booster pack. This is a product of grear value among collectors (like the anniversary product was supposed to be in their plan). Let's say i open it and give the cards away for free. The reaction of the average costumer would be:" are you stupid? The pack was worth a lot o money itself, why opening and giving away the cards? Didn't you take info account the financial value of the product?".
Because yes, in financial terms they intended theese packs like original alpha packs (they can't reprint for the well known and anstablished reasons). So, giving them a treatment you wouldn't give to one of those sends the same message. It's just that the way i suggested you don't behave being driven only by rage. Because it is still a product he's been given for free and to me looks more like a childish behaviour.
I repeat it again, i get the whole point of the idea behind the video and i totally dismiss the product myself but IMO the way a message is sent is important too.
December 4, 2022 11:58 a.m.
Personally, if I was given a free M30 pack as promotional material, I just wouldn't promote it. I'd shove it in my pocket, open it by myself, and shove the cards in a box to be forgotten about.
I don't like the idea of publicly destroying product, even valueless and exploitative product. On top of the appearance of malicious vandalism that marco-piatti brings up, it keep the product at the front of people's minds. It's just another form of advertising.
Too often, when people attempt to make a statement by destroying something, it only brings awareness of that thing. Being outraged only raises interest. Simply ignoring it raises apathy.
After watching the video, I disagree with it even more. He regularly mentions the value of the cards, and he mentions that there are potential buyers. That's exactly how you create demand. I also had the further thoughts that there are more constructive ways to destroy cards, by using them as art pieces. A thin layer of glue on the front of a binder, some aesthetic arrangement, and you have a fine display case for your cards that are actually worth something.
December 4, 2022 12:33 p.m.
Dead_Blue_ says... #7
I think the YTuber said it best, “this product shouldn’t exist”
December 4, 2022 2:03 p.m.
While I think that the spirit of this kind of stunt is okay, honestly I agree with a few people here who are saying that this may not be the best way to get a, protesting magic, message across, for two reasons.
The first reason is that doing this is doubling down on a negative and that will turn some people off. Wizards made a bad product, I mean, they made an awful product, but that's just my view. For people who like 30th, or don't really care, this is a majorly negative response, and if you are trying to get a message out there, having a less dramatic approach would get your ideas to more people. Or less, seeing as this destroying cards will definitely increase traffic on your channel...which bring me to the second reason.
What I really don't like about this, in general, is that it's meant to be a protest but is also self-serving, which could turn it around over time. Say, okay this person hates 30th and is destroying cards in protest...yep sounds good, but at the same time they are increasing viewership to their magic channel, and what happens a year from now when the creator of this channel really likes a different magic product? Those same viewers who came here in protest will be handed a free wizards advert.
For it to be an actual protest, wizards would have to see that they are losing players, and this simply doesn't do that. Talk as much smack about 30th as you want, but you are still talking about magic, and in a few months if they release reprint fetchlands or something, the audience that was so worked up will still be there. It may be a less engaging protest to say, you know what, I'm taking a break from magic and reading books, or playing the new Pokemon, or getting into Flesh and Blood, but that's a real protest. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you want to stick it to wizards, producing videos on magic is not the way to do it. It's good that they are catching flak for these nutty 30th cards, but how long do those criticism really affect them in the modern scheme of today when, so long as there is a set players love in the works, every last mistake is eventually glossed over with cash.
But, maybe it's also good to have different people out there criticizing the game in different ways. For me, and mostly because of how many sets come out and not really wanting to keep up with the game, I'm taking a break and taking the freed up time to read some books, check out YGO for the first time, and just do other things until magic is more interesting again. Though I do still enjoy this forum, mostly because everyone is nice and so many players have such fun deck ideas : )
December 4, 2022 2:12 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #9
You said “ Too often, when people attempt to make a statement by destroying something, it only brings awareness of that thing.”
We WANT awareness being brought to this egregious product. Non-mtg channels on YouTube and even weighing in on the absurdity due to the outrage portrayed in this video, and on the thousands of mtg Facebook groups and forums.
This was a limited time offer. Nobody that wants too can buy a pack of these cards anymore, so brining awareness to it is a GOOD thing, so we can let WOTC know this was unacceptable.
December 4, 2022 7:49 p.m.
Daveslab2022 My position is that attention brings consumers. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that some, or many, or most of the purchased packs were picked up by an investor or two who don't know a Time Walk from a Swamp, but saw phrases like "limited release," "controversial," and "collector's items" and thought they could make something out of it. I understand that the M:tG has largely rejected it, but what communities has this loud dismissal attracted? How much of a profit did WotC make from people who don't care about Magic and never will?
To paraphrase Samuel Goldwyn, don't pay any attention to the cards--don't even ignore them. If I see it for sale, I will pass it over. If someone forces a pack into my hand, if I can't give it back, I will do as I said above, and either quietly leave them in a box or use them as the decorative paper that they are.
Outrage and controversy bring interest, and interest brings consumers. If the greater collector community can be shown that there is no demand for or interest in this product, it can wither away and become a minor footnote in the book of failures. As it is, I suspect that people bringing attention to it have, well, brought attention to it. Not every consumer of M:tG has the best interests of the M:tG community at heart.
I'm not going to stand up and yell, "Do not buy this rare luxury product! Do not resell it for lots of money! If you treat it as a profitable investment, it will become a profitable investment! And that's bad!" I encourage people to not buy it, to walk past it, to refuse it if offered. Don't advertise it, even to show how bad it is. Don't say that people are willing to pay $1,000 for it.
Telling WotC directly how badly they messed up is a good move. Telling the world that there's a rare and limited collectible available, but that you shouldn't buy it, isn't a good move, in my opinion.
I guess in the end, denial is denial, whether it's angry or apathetic, and I think (hope) that WotC got the message. I just worry that the product and surrounding events attracted the wrong crowd.
December 4, 2022 8:26 p.m.
I agree with the sentiment of the youtuber, the product shouldn't exist. But I'm also pretty sure that this won't impact Hasbro's decision making at all. The only thing that will really do that will be enough hits to their stock price and/or drops in profits.
One of the things the youtuber said was that Hasbro wouldn't be getting as much money from him but he wants to keep playing the game. I think I'm in a similar boat. I normally buy a few packs from my LGS every time I stop in for commander night, but I'm going to switch that up and buy other things. According to my local LGS owner packs and boxes don't have great margins for the store, so I'll probably be buying singles and supplies from here on out.
December 4, 2022 11:09 p.m.
I've hit the point of being happy with my decks & collection for awhile now (fortunately, given the $$ of this game). Basically, I've bought singles & avoided boxes/packs & I haven't looked back. My decks are at a point where they've hit reasonable functionality, they stay fresh because of purposeful randomization of effects, the cards in there are good enough to where I will just fill a few slots with curiosity singles, but otherwise I don't feel compelled to throw big $$ to the beast.
My friends just came over on game-night and printed of proxies of duals on semi-glossy card stock, double sleeved them, & you would never see the difference (of course this is legal stuff & at the kitchen table). I hope other people foster that environment to promote buying the affordable stuff & printing/proxying the greed-machine stuff. Then again, I am a player first & foremost, at this point I have pretty much 0 respect for the whale/collector division that this company fosters.
December 5, 2022 5:40 a.m.
Dangerwillrobinson79 says... #13
Over $3 = proxy for me! My squad switched to printing and mpc… we went from playing the same 7 decks-as naus… to 25 decks each. We support the lgs through supplies, soo many sleeves, and hitting up their packs and food. Our commander nights are a blast with much more diverse game play thanks to budget elimination. We build based on whim and intrigue rather than cost and playability. $1000 packs? Please i could proxy and sleeve 70 decks for a grand! Lol.
December 6, 2022 11:02 p.m.
TheoryCrafter says... #14
From what I saw of the video it looked like to me he wasn't just calling out WOTC, but indirectly the most toxic parts of the fan base as well. With how angry he sounded I don't think he's at a point where he cares if he was wrong.
All I'll say about the $1000 glorified proxies is at that price the cards should have been printed on linen paper with an oracle text of platinum leaf.
December 7, 2022 9:13 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #15
[deleted]
Asked a dumb question because I misunderstood content from another video (:
December 7, 2022 9:53 p.m. Edited.
I like the cut of your jib Dangerwillrobinson79. Sounds like you have a good group.
December 7, 2022 10:38 p.m.
Dangerwillrobinson79 says... #17
Thanks Gleeock! They're the best. We play twice a week and our table usually has several people watching. There's a couple kids who play there but are confined to the 1 or 2 decks they can scrounge together on kid money. We bring extra so they can pilot decks there's no way they could afford to play normally. Frankly, I'd be hesitant to let someone run off with my $750 (real cards) Xyris deck but my $50 proxy build of a $600 Syr Konrad deck? Naaa, go smash those guys little dude!
December 8, 2022 8:46 a.m.
I'm curious what age the kiddos are? My 6-year old guy is autistic, right now it seems to interest him, but the concepts are too complex... Feels like 8-years + may be in the wheelhouse?..
December 8, 2022 3:55 p.m.
Dangerwillrobinson79 says... #19
These guys are 11-14 and a couple of them are ferocious! I have a lot of decks now and I enjoy playing against them. Gives a unique perspective on how the deck feels to play against and to see other people’s play styles applied to my builds. Also, When someone smokes the whole table with my deck, even if they kill me, I still feel like I kinda won.
Daveslab2022 says... #2
Thanks for posting this. Gave a like and a sub.
December 4, 2022 2:25 a.m.