Self-Perpetuating Epic Experiment through copies
Asked by WalzY 11 years ago
I'm wondering whether this is a semi-infinite (sorry for the oxymoron), combo.
First question would be: When the first Epic Experiment resolves, I assume it comes straight off the stack, correct?
Second question is: If I use Chandra, the Firebrand 's -2 ability to copy an Epic Experiment which I cast straight after using Chandra's ability, then uncover a Reverberate with my first Epic Experiment , I can still copy the second copy of Epic Experiment which I made, as it's still on the stack and unresolved, right? If so, theoretically as long as I keep uncovering a Reverberate with one Epic Experiment still unresolved on the stack, I can keep doing it?
Here's the example:
Epic Experiment for 3, assuming 1 copy from Chandra, the Firebrand . (Read the stack from bottom to top):
14) etc. etc. etc.
13) 4th Epic Experiment
12) etc.
11) etc.
10) etc.
9) 3rd Epic Experiment
8) Reverberate copying the third copy of Epic Experiment produced by previous Reverberate which was uncovered by first Epic Experiment
7) Mountain
6) Pillar of Flame x1
5) 2nd Epic Experiment (produced by Chandra's copy) - now resolves and comes off the stack.
4) Reverberate copying Chandra, the Firebrand's copy of Epic Experiment producing a third copy.
3) Flames of the Firebrand x 1
2) Pillar of Flame x1
1) 1st Epic Experiment - resolves and comes off the stack straight away.
Are you sure? Like, can I copy an already copied spell? Also, was I right in thinking that the first Epic Experiment comes straight off the stack and so cannot be copied by a Reverberate which the Epic Experiment itself reveals?
December 26, 2012 5:46 p.m.
The way you are doing it works and to answer your other question You CAN copy the resolving Epic Experiment with a Reverberate that it found. However since no other spells can be placed onto the stack until Epic Experiment is done resolving, when the Reverberate is actually placed on the stack and resolves it will fizzle since its target is no longer valid.
December 26, 2012 6:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
In a little more detail:
Question 1: Putting a resolved instant or sorcery into its owner's graveyard is the final step in resolving that spell. While it's resolving, it's still on the stack. However, it will become an illegal target for anything that targets it during its resolution. Remember that while the cards cast via Epic Experiment are placed onto the stack, they do not resolve until after Epic Experiment has finished resolving.
Question 2: You can copy a copy of a spell. There is no restriction on Reverberate that says the targeted spell must be a card and not a copy. Also, note that the copy from Chandra, the Firebrand 's -2 will be put onto the stack above the original spell. This is because the copy is created from a triggered ability.
Your stack example is very confusing. I'm not sure what it's supposed to be saying or asking.
December 26, 2012 6:04 p.m.
I should rephrase that from you CAN copy it to you can TARGET the resolving Epic Experiment with the new found Reverberate since you will not actually get a copy.
December 26, 2012 6:05 p.m.
Thanks w999 Tunde and Epochalyptik, that clears up most of the confusion.
Epochalyptik - sorry, I pasted the stack from my deck deck:guttersnipes-epic-burn-experiment so it wasn't clear that the Pillar of Flame s and Flames of the Firebrand were just spells uncovered by my Epic Experiment s.
Essentially, what I'm saying is this:
I have 2 copies of Epic Experiment to start with: The original Epic Experiment (Epic Experiment Number One) in my hand, and the copy from Chandra, the Firebrand 's -2 ability (Epic Experiment Number Two).
I use Epic Experiment Number One. It uncovers whatever cards, and a Reverberate . The Epic Experiment then goes to the graveyard and resolves before I can cast any of the cards which I uncovered and exiled ready for casting.
Then I copy the second copy of the Epic Experiment (Epic Experiment Number Two) which was created by Chandra, the Firebrand , using Reverberate , leaving me with another copy of Epic Experiment (Epic Experiment number three) waiting to resolve after I've resolved Epic Experiment number two and the cards exiled with it.
I resolve Epic Experiment Number Two, uncover two more Reverberate s, and copy Epic Experiment Number Three twice which is still waiting to be resolved, creating Epic Experiments four and five waiting to be resolved.
Then I resolve Epic Experiments Number Three and Four which don't produce any more Reverberate s.
I Then resolve Epic Experiment Number Five, which uncovers another Reverberate (I realise you can't have more than 4 of one card, but this is for the sake of the example). This time I can't copy any more Epic Experiment s as there are none waiting to resolve, so I just copy a random instant spell uncovered by the Epic Experiment Number Five instead.
So, does the above work?
Also, I'm a little confused as to how the epic experiments, along with the instants they uncover go on the stack - i.e. I'm assuming I must resolve the instants I exile from an epic experiment before resolving the next epic experiment and exiling more cards?
December 26, 2012 6:34 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
You're still forgetting that the copy of Epic Experiment created by Chandra, the Firebrand 's ability will resolve before the original Epic Experiment . The copy doesn't even exist until you cast Epic Experiment and the delayed triggered ability created by Chandra, the Firebrand triggers and resolves.
Also, you cast the revealed cards during the execution of Epic Experiment , as per Epic Experiment 's text.
Cards aren't removed from the stack until they are either countered or fully resolved.
Anything you cast from Epic Experiment will go on top of the stack, which means those cards will resolve before whatever else was on the stack. You don't pick and choose how the stack resolves; it's always top-down.
December 26, 2012 6:54 p.m.
Let's break this down.
You cast Epic Experiment 1 (EE1) and Chandra, the Firebrand 's ability triggers and creates EE2. EE2 reveals Reverberate , and you can cast it targeting EE1. EE2 resolves once you have chosen all spells to cast with it and place the others in your graveyard, then you cast those spells in the order they have been placed upon the stack. Ignoring all other spells, Reverberate 1 (R1) resolves and it creates EE3.
EE3 is now the next item on the stack. It reveals R2 and R3. You use R2 then R3 to copy EE1, creating EE4 and EE5 respectively.
EE5 is the next item on the stack. It reveals R4. You can use R4 targeting EE4 or EE1 since they are both on the stack to create EE6.
After all that, EE6 would resolve, then EE4, then EE1.
Always remember to use the first in, last out principle when dealing with the stack. Also, the EEs that I said you could target are the ones that will provide you with the desired effect; for example, you could choose to target EE2 with a Reverberate revealed by EE2, but EE2 would resolve and become an illegal target for that Reverb, causing it to be countered for having no legal targets.
If I made any errors, someone correct me please!
December 26, 2012 7:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Nitpick: You cast the revealed spells before you put the remaining cards in the graveyard. That's relevant if you have a spell that would interact with or require information from the graveyard. Also, you resolve the revealed spells in the reverse order of how they were placed on the stack.
December 26, 2012 7:09 p.m.
Thanks so much Jimhawk and Epochalyptik (ha, your name colours fit the Izzet blue and red theme). I'm up to speed now, though my head is hurting a bit.
My final queries to tie up are relatively simple:
1) I choose the order in which I put the exiled cards I wish to cast onto the stack, right?
2) When you say "you could choose to target EE2 with a Reverberate revealed by EE2, but EE2 would resolve and become an illegal target for that Reverb, causing it to be countered for having no legal targets." At what point exactly is the epic experiment 2 resolving? Is it after I have named all the cards and their targets put on the stack by EE2, or after I have resolved all the cards put on the stack by EE2?
December 26, 2012 7:36 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #11
1) Yes
2) The spells are cast during the resolution of Epic Experiment . Because the last step of resolving a spell is putting it into the graveyard, the Experiment is in the graveyard at the time the first of the spells it cast can actually start resolving. Any spell that was targeting that Experiment will be countered for lack of a legal target when it comes time for it to resolve (if the Experiment was its only target, that is).
December 26, 2012 7:50 p.m.
Awesome, I'm out of questions at last and I can now sleep peacefully! All the help has been very much appreciated. My sincerest thanks!
tempest says... #1
Yep. That definitely works
December 26, 2012 5:31 p.m.