Proliferate and Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
Asked by AkrosTheClear 6 years ago
So I have Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons out and I play Grim Affliction on a Dusk Urchins. I place the -1/-1 counter on it, then I place another -1/-1 counter due to proliferate. Does this give me two snakes or one snake?
And actually I have another question: If the Dusk Urchins already had two -1/-1 counters on it and I played Grim Affliction would Dusk Urchins die before I can put the other -1/-1 counter from the proliferate, or would I be able to proliferate and draw 4 cards? What if Dusk Urchins attacks, gets its third -1/-1 counter and then I play Grim Affliction on response?
okay thanks for taking a look at this, it will clear up a lot of questions that I have.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #2
-1/-1 Counters don't kill a creature until SBAs are checked, which doesn't happen until after the entire effect resolves. If you cast Grim Affliction targeting an X/1 creature, you can proliferate a second counter onto said X/1 because it will not die until after the entire effect resolves.
Also, you can respond to Dusk Urchins' triggered ability with Grim Affliction to give it two more counters, but it would die before its own trigger resolves, and would only have 4 counters on it at the time (assuming you have no +Toughness effect on it).
February 9, 2018 2:58 p.m. Edited.
I was being silly--I was thinking about 704.2 ("State-based actions are checked throughout the game and are not controlled by any player."), and forgot the timing element of Rule 704.3 (SBAs are checked when a player gains priority. Ignore my response to your second and third questions, and listen to Tyrant-Thanatos instead!
February 9, 2018 3:05 p.m. Edited.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #4
I do believe that you are correct cdkime about Grim Affliction placing the two counters as separate events and triggering Hapatra twice though. Triggered abilities only go onto the stack once a player gains priority, but that doesn't stop them triggering more than once before that happens.
February 9, 2018 3:18 p.m.
Yep. Hapatra triggers on each event that places 1 or more counters.
Grim Affliction has two effects, therefore those effects create separate events.
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
700.1. Anything that happens in a game is an event. Multiple events may take place during the resolution of a spell or ability. The text of triggered abilities and replacement effects defines the event they're looking for. One 'happening" may be treated as a single event by one ability and as multiple events by another.
Example: If an attacking creature is blocked by two creatures, this is one event for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked" but two events for a triggered ability that reads "Whenever [this creature] becomes blocked by a creature."
- 603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.
And Dusk Urchins WILL give you additional draws if it gets more -1/-1 counters on it before SBA's are checked. This can turn Black Sun's Zenith into a large draw spell.
February 10, 2018 3:20 a.m.
AkrosTheClear says... #6
Okay thanks guys, those responses really helped me get a better understanding of card interactions. Great answers, I appreciate them.
Caerwyn says... #1
You would get two snakes, and the creature would die before you could proliferate.
When a card has a "then" statement, it is an event which occurs after the first event. You or an opponent cannot respond between these events, however (i.e. they cannot let you get a -1/-1 counter, then counter just the proliferate trigger).
I cannot find the specific rule in the comprehensive rules on "then" statements on cards, but the rulings on Grim Affliction should be sufficient if anyone asks for a rules clarification. Per the ruling on June 1, 2011: You may choose the creature you put the -1/-1 counter on to get another -1/-1 counter when proliferating.
This shows that the -1/-1 counter from the card is placed on the creature before the proliferation. If this were not the case, then you could not target the recently added -1/-1 counter with proliferate. Since these are separate events, they will trigger Hapatra twice.
Likewise, if you kill the creature with the first -1/-1 counter, it will no longer be around when the proliferate mechanic triggers, so you cannot place an additional -1/-1 counter.
For your third question, you cannot play Grim Affliction in response to getting the third -1/-1 counter from attacking. Your creature will die instantaneously as a state-based action, and you cannot respond at instant speed.
February 9, 2018 2:55 p.m. Edited.