Persist AND Undying on one creature

Asked by Randomsome1 4 weeks ago

I'm working on some spicy aristocrat-esque combos. What happens if you use Cauldron Haze on a creature with undying, like Young Wolf , with a free sac outlet, lets say Phyrexian Altar ?

How do the effects go off? Do they both proc and the counters cancel out, or would 1 fizzle out because the creature isn't in grave anymore? Could you manipulate the stack to alternate which one fully resolves?

Kogarashi says... Accepted answer #1

Persist and Undying are both triggered abilities. As you control the creature in question, you would choose what order they go on the stack, and the first to resolve will put the creature back on the battlefield with a counter of the correct type. The other ability will fizzle due to the creature no longer being in the graveyard. That's it.

However there is still value to combining Persist and Undying, just not in the way you're working it here.

The way it works out is this: let's say your Young Wolf already died once and came back with a +1/+1 counter from Undying. If it died again, Undying wouldn't be able to bring it back due to it having a +1/+1 counter on it. But if you gave it Persist, then it could come back with Persist, receiving a -1/-1 counter. At that point, Undying would be able to bring it back again, even though Persist couldn't. This is why people like to combine Persist creatures with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed .

It's important to note that the Young Wolf that returns will be a new object with no memory of its previous existence, including having Persist from Cauldron Haze . You'll have to find a way to give it Persist again to continue playing with this interaction.

August 19, 2019 9:30 p.m.

Kogarashi says... #2

Oh, and sacrificing the Young Wolf again between the two triggers won't do anything useful, again due to the wolf being a new object with no memory of its previous existence.

August 19, 2019 9:35 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #3

Cauldron Haze only affects the permanents that it targets, once the cards change zones and return to the battlefield the new permanents don't have persist even though they are represented by the same card.

To answer your question lets assume we are using Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Woodfall Primus so that the permanent has both abilities each time it is recurred.the steps of what happens are as follows.

  1. Woodfall Primus dies, both undying and persist trigger.

  2. You control both abilities and so get to put them on the stack in whatever order you wish. For this example we will be putting persist on the stack first and then undying.

  3. After a round of priority the topmost object of the stack resolves. Assuming no responses this is undying.

  4. Woodfall Primus is put on the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter.

  5. After another round of priority persist resolves but has nothing to move.

  6. The next time Primus dies he has a +1/+1 counter and only persist triggers.

  7. The abilities keep alternating because Primus will have one of the two types of counters but not both. (Excluding some corner cases).

August 19, 2019 9:38 p.m.

Randomsome1 says... #4

thank you for the very thorough explanation

August 20, 2019 4:12 p.m.

Note that bringing Young Wolf back with persist will have it immediately die to state based actions for having 0 toughness, and will come back with undying right after. There’s no time of Young Wolf being on the battlefield as a 0/0 where you could sac it to your altar or interact with it

August 20, 2019 6:04 p.m.

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