Giada, Font of Hope + Soul of Emancipation
Asked by le-stan 1 year ago
Hi,
We stumbled about a case last night during a sealed deck of Streets of New Capenna and we couldn't find a definitive answer, so here's the situation:
The player has on the board: - Giada, Font of hope - 3 Citizen tokens
He then plays Soul of Emancipation, and when it enters the battlefield, he targets (and destroys) his 3 citizen tokens.
3 3/3 white angel creatures will be created, but since Giada, Font of Hope is on the battlefield, how does this resolve?
In our view, it's one of these: - 3 3/3 with a +1/+1 counter on each of them - 1 3/3 with one +1/+1 counter, one 3/3 with two +1/+1 counters and one 3/3 with three +1/+1 counters.
It comes to finding out if - when the ETB effect of Soul of Emancipation resolves, all 3 tokens are created at the same time or if they come into play "one at a time" (thus collecting 1, 2 and 3 counters)
Thanks in advance for your answer.
Since we have "each" and "up to" in the rulings, these triggers are separated out as three separate events. Similarly, they would resolve this way as well. This means that the ETBS would be separate triggered events as well (hence entering one at a time), allowing Giada to add progressively more counters to each of the three angels. This is the consistent way similar cards with "each" and "any number" triggers such as Semester's End work as well.
May 10, 2022 3:09 p.m.
Sorry, but I don't believe that's right.
Giada, Font of Hope does not grant triggered abilities to Angels entering the battlefield, in the same way that Master Biomancer doesn't. They're replacement effects for how those creatures enter the battlefield, and those creatures enter the battlefield with counters already on them without a separate ability resolving on the stack. Cathars' Crusade has triggered abilities from creatures entering, which is a different deal whereby you'd get to order them on the stack.
Unless I'm much mistaken, the word "already" in Giada's rules don't change its utility at all, and is only there for clarity in circumstances exactly like this. (Otherwise, it could have been worded "for each Angel you control other than the Angel entering the battlefield". Or something slightly less messy.)
These creatures all enter the battlefield simultaneously and none of them is already on the battlefield before any of them enter. So as they're entering the battlefield, they don't see each other on the battlefield already because they're all of them entering at the same time. Similar to if you have a Clone enter the battlefield at the same time as an... Arbor Elf, and otherwise the battlefield is empty. The Clone doesn't have an opportunity to copy the Elf because it's not already on the battlefield for Clone to copy. Clone would enter as a 0/0 and die due to SBAs.
Each of the three Angel tokens will enter with a single +1/+1 counter because Giada is the only Angel their controller controls that's already on the battlefield as they enter.
May 13, 2022 12:36 p.m. Edited.
Having followed rules and discussion around Cosmic Intervention and Giada specifically the general consensus was that with Intervention the ETBs happen as separate events, allowing you to re-order, whereas with Eerie Interlude they all happen at once. This could be of course, because Intervention creates separate events initially and that affects the resolution, but that was my reference point, and may not apply to Semester's End, which is more similar to this card.
Now I will say that creatures ETB'ing simultaneously definitely do see each other. I've played enough ETB decks and read enough rules forums to know that! Giada's ability stipulates already as a replacement effect, as you say, so if she isn't on the battlefield before they ETB then nothing happens, hence why after Eerie Interlude creatures may be spared but lose all their counters, whereas Intervention allows her to enter first and repopulate them as one chooses. I honestly haven't researched Semester's End with Giada too much, I mostly play it in my planeswalker deck to save them from attackers, so I could definitely be wrong in that card! In that case I'll take your word for it that the angels enter separately despite the each trigger in which case, yes, they would only get the +1/+1. Thanks for the clarification!
May 13, 2022 3:10 p.m.
No worries, and you basically already have this so you can ignore this if you want but I'll put it down for posterity.
Cosmic Intervention causes a replacement effect for each permanent you control that would be sent from the battlefield to the graveyard. Then it sets up a delayed triggered ability ("At the beginning of the next end step") for each. They're separate triggers because the way its worded applies to each permanent individually ("If a permanent ... return it to the battlefield"). Because they're separate triggers and you control them all (assuming you didn't control any creatures you didn't own), you get to order them all on the stack as you like.
Eerie Interlude is similar to this except it exiles them all at once, and has only one trigger that returns all the exiled creatures to the battlefield at the same time. Semester's End is the same except it also applies to planeswalkers and has a replacement effect for how they all enter the battlefield (entering with an additional counter).
You're right too that creatures entering the battlefield simultaneously absolutely do see each other entering the battlefield. So for something like Soul of the Harvest entering the battlefield at the same time 5 other nontoken creatures, you'd get to draw 5 times. However the replacement effect of Giada, Font of Hope (which to be clear is the "enters with" part, like with Semester's End or Ugin's Conjurant) seems to be dependant on creatures already being on the battlefield that the creatures entering the battlefield need to see. And creatures entering the battlefield simultaneously don't get to see each other already on the battlefield for replacement effects that depend on those creatures being on the battlefield – as the replacement effects basically happen while the creatures are entering the battlefield, though the effects aren't usually applicable until the permanent finishing entering.
Sorry I'm getting kinda sleepy, hope that all made sense.
May 13, 2022 5:59 p.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #6
le-stan: Answers to your question have been up for a while. Since there don't seem to be any more follow-ups or corrections to be made, I marked one of the correct responses as the "Accepted answer" so this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. In the future you can take care of this yourself using the "Mark as Answer" button on the response that you feel best answers your question.
le-stan says... #1
Sorry, when I posted the initial question, I didn't have the "formatting tips" displayed, so here are the involved cards: Giada, Font of Hope and Soul of Emancipation
May 10, 2022 6:15 a.m.