Exchanging control of a counterspell and targeting on the stack legalities
Asked by Xephon_ 4 years ago
Hi all,
I had a game of commander the other day with a few friends and would like to receive clarification on something they did which I thought they couldn't do. Here's what happened:
(Player X = PX)
- P1 cast Kindred Dominance choosing Faeries.
- P2 (me) cast Memory Lapse targeting P1's Kindred Dominance.
- P3 cast Sudden Substitution exchanging control of one of their irrelevant creatures for my Memory Lapse.
- Sudden Substitution resolves.
- P3 "fails to find a target" for Memory Lapse and lets it fizzle.
- Kindred Dominance resolves wiping the board except for P1's creatures.
So here's the question: Was it possible or legal to do what P3 did? I told him that he needed to target Kindred Dominance with Memory Lapse because he must choose a target and Kindred Dominance was the only spell under Memory Lapse on the stack (and the only other spell on the stack in general). P3 and P1 tried to counter this argument by example of "failing to find a specific card" when searching your library with a tutor, fetch land, or the like. After a few minutes I just let them do what they wanted because it was a 2v1 argument and they weren't letting up. P4 stayed out of it.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #2
There was a way for your opponent to get what they wanted, but you were right that it doesn't work the way they say it does. They can change the target of Memory Lapse to Sudden Substitution because Substitution is still on the stack while its effect is resolving (this is a well established trick with cards like Misdirection , etc.). Then when it's finally time for Lapse to start resolving, it fizzles because Substitution is gone.
The concept of "fail to find" only applies when a player is instructed to look through a hidden zone (usually a library, but sometimes a hand) for a card with a specific quality. If the effect making them do that doesn't also say to reveal all the cards in that zone, then the player is allowed to "fail to find" whatever they're looking for. This is because it's possible that there aren't any such cards in that zone, or that the player just missed them, and there's no way for the other players to verify that if all the cards are staying hidden. For example: you can "fail to find" a creature with Worldly Tutor (you're only told to reveal the one card you do find), you can't "fail to find" valid choices that exist for Guided Passage (the entire library is revealed to everyone), and you can't "fail to find" for Demonic Tutor (you're just told to get "a card").
For your follow-up question, you are also right. You can only cast a targeted spell if you're able to choose enough legal targets for it. You're not allowed to cast a Counterspell with no target just because you feel like it.
Xephon_ says... #1
Also, P1 later makes a comment at some point saying that you can cast a counterspell at any time, but if there's nothing on the stack it just won't do anything.
Again, I disagreed with him. I said in order to cast Counterspell it must have a legal target at the time of casting since it says target and the only time he is right is for counterspells like Summary Dismissal which don't say to target.
Am I going insane or do my friends simply not know the rules?
January 7, 2020 12:18 p.m.